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Can we bid this slam? Great fit in clubs

#1 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2018-January-22, 14:49



Playing 15-17 5542 (but would open 1 with a balanced hand with four diamonds), Walsh (but apparently this 1 rebid doesn't promize an unbalanced hand), responder's 3 at second turn is apparently forcing (Pavlicek style or some such, not really worked out in details). 4 is available as minorwood from either side. North could also start with a splinter or an inverted raise although that in principle denies a four-card major.

Slam is not bad. Clubs 2-1 and either K or A in the right place would give you some 57% and depending on opps' skills and clues from the bidding you may have additional chances, such as for example West leading A (it was matchpoints after all).

Should either partner have done something?

Would it be easier if we were playing your favorite system?
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
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#2 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2018-January-22, 15:47

I would not get there.
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#3 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2018-January-22, 15:55

View Postcherdano, on 2018-January-22, 15:47, said:

I would not get there.


And happy to have not done so. :P
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#4 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2018-January-22, 16:28

View Posthelene_t, on 2018-January-22, 14:49, said:

Playing 15-17 5542 (but would open 1 with a balanced hand with four diamonds), Walsh (but apparently this 1 rebid doesn't promize an unbalanced hand), responder's 3 at second turn is apparently forcing (Pavlicek style or some such, not really worked out in details). 4 is available as minorwood from either side. North could also start with a splinter or an inverted raise although that in principle denies a four-card major.Slam is not bad. Clubs 2-1 and either K or A in the right place would give you some 57% and depending on opps' skills and clues from the bidding you may have additional chances, such as for example West leading A (it was matchpoints after all).Should either partner have done something?Would it be easier if we were playing your favorite system?

Jasmine
With slow red-suit stops and weak support, it's hard for South to show slam-enthusiasm.

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#5 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2018-January-22, 16:31

Slams from 12 opposite 13 hands are usually pretty difficult to bid even if cold.

I don't think I'd get there.
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#6 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2018-January-22, 16:34

Polish Club would start 1C - 2C (5+, FG); 3C (normally 4+ support) and then it seems we should have a shot. I think the key to getting to a slam is for North to work out there is a 10-card club fit before the partnership passes 3NT. Inverted minors would achieve the same thing, but if your 2C denies a major you are much worse off on this particular hand.
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#7 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2018-January-22, 16:48

View Postnige1, on 2018-January-22, 16:28, said:


Jasmine
With slow red-suit stops and weak support, it's hard for South to show slam-enthusiasm.


I would think that if South has shown 10-12 with just 2-4 clubs, the actual hand with its 4-card support and four controls is quite good in context, no?
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#8 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-January-22, 16:56

Translating what we play to strong no trump which doesn't entirely work as we are GF if balanced:

1(4+)-2(inverted inv+, not denying 4M)
2(nat minimum)-3
3N

and now N will visualise the S hand with either AK rather than AQ or KQ or A instead of K or KQ and plough on with 4.

This is a very common theme of "we opened a 2 card club and didn't realise we had that big a fit", it's the price you pay.
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#9 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2018-January-22, 17:54

View PostCyberyeti, on 2018-January-22, 16:56, said:

Translating what we play to strong no trump which doesn't entirely work as we are GF if balanced:

1(4+)-2(inverted inv+, not denying 4M)
2(nat minimum)-3
3N

and now N will visualise the S hand with either AK rather than AQ or KQ or A instead of K or KQ and plough on with 4.

This is a very common theme of "we opened a 2 card club and didn't realise we had that big a fit", it's the price you pay.

I am amazed your North knows that South has no wasted club honours in your 10-card fit!
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#10 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2018-January-22, 18:08

Using my (nullve-nullve's) system, maybe

1-2 ("NAT or 11-13/17-19/26+ BAL"; "GF, 5+ C, unBAL")
2-2 (relay; "13-15")
2-2N (relay; "4+ H or 1-suited")
3-3 (relay; "2425 or 4H6C")
3-4 (relay, willing to bypass 3N opposite 4H6C; 2416 (then 12-14 hcp))
4-5 (parity key card ask in ; odd # of key cards)
6-P (looking stupid opposite e.g. Kx-QJxx-J-KQJxxx; ---).

Or should Opener sign off in 3N over 3?
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#11 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-January-22, 18:13

View Postcherdano, on 2018-January-22, 17:54, said:

I am amazed your North knows that South has no wasted club honours in your 10-card fit!


He doesn't, but AK, A is plenty, the fact that he ploughs on over 3N doesn't commit to slam. More awkward at pairs where 5 might be disastrous but fine at teams.
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#12 User is online   steve2005 

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Posted 2018-January-22, 20:53

View Postrmnka447, on 2018-January-22, 16:31, said:

Slams from 12 opposite 13 hands are usually pretty difficult to bid even if cold.

I don't think I'd get there.

Only reason to be in slam is if your swinging. This isn't a great slam.
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#13 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2018-January-23, 01:31

View Poststeve2005, on 2018-January-22, 20:53, said:

Only reason to be in slam is if your swinging. This isn't a great slam.


Really!? From the South side of the table it's a brilliant slam, and from the North side it's just short of brilliant. To the poster: I'm apologise for being so direct but your comment is wrong.
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#14 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2018-January-23, 01:49

Seeing all 26 cards,some players can always devise a new system on the table to bid a small slam in clubs which depends on this or that to be well placed. A few super experts with complicated systems may perhaps bid this slam missing the Trump Queen,the Diamond Ace and spade King.
Practically all,I am afraid ,will rest comfortably in 3NT and a few in 5Clubs.
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#15 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2018-January-23, 02:40



This is not easy.
- Would I bid 3NT now with South? Definitely at pairs, not sure at IMPs.
- Should North carry on, even if south does bid 3NT? Again, the form of scoring might matter, but probably not I suspect.
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#16 User is offline   xbabarx 

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Posted 2018-January-23, 03:57

I'm passing 3nt
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#17 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-January-23, 05:11

View PostTramticket, on 2018-January-23, 02:40, said:



This is not easy.
- Would I bid 3NT now with South? Definitely at pairs, not sure at IMPs.
- Should North carry on, even if south does bid 3NT? Again, the form of scoring might matter, but probably not I suspect.


Starting with 1N we have to bid this in awkward fashion, and I suspect we do with Kx instead of Jx, but it's a big step with the actual hand.

The auction for us is 1N-2-2-4 slammish, 4/5+ but if only 5 clubs will be a much bigger hand.
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#18 User is offline   0deary 

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Posted 2018-January-23, 06:08

My favourite system: what a lovely question!

I’d never reach 6C

After the 1S I’d reflect:

E/W have ~ 14 points and quite possibly ~9 diamonds but not a peep from them at Match points- what’s going on?

Anyway I’m north and I’m going to be the decider on that particular bridge conversation so I will seek information (rather than give information hoping south can make something of that)

If I ask partner 4th suit 2D now either she will bid 2/3NT or she can’t, but to save time let’s just look at the 2N reply

For 2N I need my partner to have 6 clubs, a diamond on the lead and my Ace hearts= tick. To make 3N partner needs a quick trick too- exactly the Ace spades and not the KQ because the diamond ceiling will otherwise hit our heads. For running 6 clubs I can only really rely on 3 opposite so I need 2-2 or missing Q in finesse, and to rely on AS is by no means a certainty. All in all a bit too much

So at match points I think I’ll just retreat to 3C and hope that gives us a decent MPs return. It’ll be great if either of the black suit misbehave- a great MP in prospect

(If she essays 3N I’m hoping she has more D stops, more tempi to deal with the black suits, and I’d hope for a half decent MP result for our efforts. If she can’t stop D at all then slightly better chances for 5C but I’d likely still need running Clubs- a solid 3C again looks best, certainly not a speculative 6)
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#19 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2018-January-23, 06:19

4-6/5 canapé style bid with 2/1 can be possibly bid but how to get to 6 is not easy. if south bid 1nt second round, hand strength 12-14 balance given opposed to four card suit, then bid sequence can be 1 - 1 - 1nt - 2(gf) - 2 - 3(second suit) - ? but i still see declarer play 3nt, not 5/6

i like inverted minor raise with north hand but cannot do as hold 4 card suit. so inverted minor should be revised so hand like this can be bid good.
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#20 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2018-January-23, 07:08

View PostLBengtsson, on 2018-January-23, 06:19, said:

i like inverted minor raise with north hand but cannot do as hold 4 card suit. so inverted minor should be revised so hand like this can be bid good.


I tend to find that this is an area where strong NT short club suffers.

Weak NT, 4 card club means handling a non GF inverted raise that may contain a 4 card major is not that difficult, hence you can bid a lot of hands more accurately. The issue is that if the club is balanced it's 15+ so GF. Almost anything better than minimum goes thru an artificial 2 over the invert.
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