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Which suit first?

#1 User is offline   iandayre 

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Posted 2017-December-23, 18:37

Playing SA or 2/1, 15-17 NT. You hold 4432 distribution, 12-14 HCP.

You open 1D, 2C overcall, double by partner, Pass. Do you bid Spades or Hearts?
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#2 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2017-December-23, 20:30

View Postiandayre, on 2017-December-23, 18:37, said:

Playing SA or 2/1, 15-17 NT. You hold 4432 distribution, 12-14 HCP.

You open 1D, 2C overcall, double by partner, Pass. Do you bid Spades or Hearts?


90% of the time the lower suit, hearts. It allows you to escape to spades a level lower if the opponents double for penalty. However, if the suit quality was AKQx against xxxx I would bid the stronger suit.
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#3 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2017-December-24, 09:01

View Postiandayre, on 2017-December-23, 18:37, said:

Playing SA or 2/1, 15-17 NT. You hold 4432 distribution, 12-14 HCP.

You open 1D, 2C overcall, double by partner, Pass. Do you bid Spades or Hearts?

Have you agreed that double in that auction shows at least 4 cards in each major? Or might it be 4-3?
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#4 User is offline   iandayre 

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Posted 2017-December-25, 13:04

View PostTramticket, on 2017-December-24, 09:01, said:

Have you agreed that double in that auction shows at least 4 cards in each major? Or might it be 4-3?


The double shows at least one major. If only one, then support for the opener's suit.
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#5 User is offline   MrAce 

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Posted 2017-December-25, 19:02

Deleted (I thought it was 1 opening and 1 overcall for some reason,)
"Genius has its own limitations, however stupidity has no such boundaries!"
"It's only when a mosquito lands on your testicles that you realize there is always a way to solve problems without using violence!"





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#6 User is offline   lycier 

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Posted 2017-December-26, 01:40

I would bid 2 at first and I scarely dare think of 2.
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#7 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2017-December-26, 11:29

So partner, might be correcting to the three level? If partner is prepared to play at the three level, why not bid 3C and let partner tell me which major he has. 3C is an overbid with a minimum balanced hand, but at least it gets us to the right strain.

This isn't my problem (we play a weak NT and four-card majors) I would have opened 1NT with this hand and with a stronger hand, I would have opened 1H. So I'm interested to hear other answers.
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#8 User is offline   wanoff 

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Posted 2017-December-26, 16:34

If you are weak you bid 2, partner may be as little as 9 (or good 8) and may have one major.
If you wish to FG then 3.
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#9 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2017-December-26, 18:36

If I am willing to compete over 3C by the opposition - maybe a queen more than minimum - I'll bid 2S. If not, I'll probably choose hearts.
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#10 User is offline   U19 

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Posted 2017-December-27, 05:25

2S is better. IF partner has not a game-force hand ,he had to bid 2NT,then you natrually 3H . but if 2H ,then some problem may occur: rebid 3S maybe thought as reversed hand and force to game.
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#11 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2017-December-28, 05:42

View PostU19, on 2017-December-27, 05:25, said:

2S is better. IF partner has not a game-force hand ,he had to bid 2NT,then you natrually 3H . but if 2H ,then some problem may occur: rebid 3S maybe thought as reversed hand and force to game.


If partner had a hand where he had sufficient points to reverse, surely he would have opened 1NT or indicated that on the second round over the 2 overcall, not by just giving simple preference to a major at the two level?
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#12 User is online   gszes 

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Posted 2017-December-28, 11:40

If you do not play negative free bids there are many more hand that need to be covered by beginning with a negative x. The straightforward answer to your question is to bid hearts 100% of the time. The main reason is not the ability to run from 2hx but to cater to some of the other type hands responder might have when not playing negative free bids. Responder has Kx Axxxxx xxxx x after 1d 2c what are they to do? Responder must start with x and the worst case scenario if they have to rebid hearts they will have not only shown 6 but limited the power of their hand by not bidding 2h immediately. If opener can bid 2h responder's hand suddenly becomes a monster and they have a nice easy 4h bid. Reverse the majors and if opener can bid 2h responder can then bid 2s and acts as a mild invite if opener has a nice minimum with spade support also change the hand further to AQJxxx xx xxxx x and over a 2h rebid by opener responder can now bid 3s as a strong invite but still limited in power when they did not bid 2s the singleton club and secondary diamond fit make this had a lot stronger than the mere 7hcp they hold.
Another type of hand might be xxx Kxxx Axxxx x. If responder cannot use a neg x their side might all too easily lose the heart suit. If opener sometimes bids 2s (when opener is 44 in the majors) instead of 2h they also will surely lose the heart suit.
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#13 User is offline   iandayre 

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Posted 2017-December-30, 18:40

I appreciate the replies. I took this as an equivalent situation to responding to a takeout double of 1m with 4-4 in the majors and decent, but less than invitational values. 1S is correct there and I liked 2S here. I planned on bidding H next if I had a chance, and that happened when overcaller rebid 3C, P, P, back to me. Had I bid 2H I would have been stuck, but now I had an easy 3H call.

Didn't work well this time with GIB as partner, but I am not convinced I should change, though it is clear that most prefer 2H. I would add that all the example hands from Gszes could rebid 3D over my 2S call, and then H would be found.
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#14 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2018-January-01, 16:47

View Postiandayre, on 2017-December-30, 18:40, said:

I appreciate the replies. I took this as an equivalent situation to responding to a takeout double of 1m with 4-4 in the majors and decent, but less than invitational values. 1S is correct there and I liked 2S here. I planned on bidding H next if I had a chance, and that happened when overcaller rebid 3C, P, P, back to me. Had I bid 2H I would have been stuck, but now I had an easy 3H call.

Didn't work well this time with GIB as partner, but I am not convinced I should change, though it is clear that most prefer 2H. I would add that all the example hands from Gszes could rebid 3D over my 2S call, and then H would be found.

The two situations are very different. After 1 (2), it would be routine to double with shapes such as 4=2=4=3 or 2=4=4=3. If you bid 2, partner can bid 2 with the former shape and you get to play in your major at the 2-level. But if you bid 2, partner has to correct to 3 and now you have to play at the 3-level.

After (1) X, partner will only very rarely be 4=2 or 2=4 in the majors, and anyway, bidding 1 over your 1 would show a different hand.
Obviously we have a recall bias in favour of the assholes. -helene_t
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#15 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2018-January-01, 20:28

View Postcherdano, on 2018-January-01, 16:47, said:

The two situations are very different. After 1 (2), it would be routine to double with shapes such as 4=2=4=3 or 2=4=4=3. If you bid 2, partner can bid 2 with the former shape and you get to play in your major at the 2-level. But if you bid 2, partner has to correct to 3 and now you have to play at the 3-level.

Should correcting to 2s be assumed to show 4 trumps only? I thought normally it shows 5-6, essentially a hand that would have made a negative free bid if available.
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#16 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2018-January-02, 05:49

View PostStephen Tu, on 2018-January-01, 20:28, said:

Should correcting to 2s be assumed to show 4 trumps only? I thought normally it shows 5-6, essentially a hand that would have made a negative free bid if available.

+1
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