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3 from the club atb

#1 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2011-April-28, 16:29

I'm rated by my club's partner-finder-person as "has a lot of potential". My partner tonight was rated as "a good player". But would you look at these terrible bidding sequences... (all Acol, 4cM, weak NT systems)

1)

Multi 2D = "either weak in a major or a strong hand"


West had a weak two in spades, and suffice to say, THEY made 2S. :)

2)



A couple others were in 6C making, though it goes down on a spade lead.

3)



Very good 6S. As it happens the trumps broke 4-1, but that's not a complete disaster in itself if you can pick up hearts - turns out I couldn't here, but this slam still looks around 80%.

So, ATB?

ahydra
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#2 User is offline   Bbradley62 

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Posted 2011-April-28, 16:56

never mind... i presume you mean that 6 goes down on the second one...
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#3 User is offline   Quantumcat 

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Posted 2011-April-29, 00:51

1. Whatever system you agree to play over a 2 opening, North's double isn't very good. He was not strong enough to double then bid his own suit or to double then bid NT. He should have either bid 2NT (which is exactly what he's got) or passed, then maybe balanced with 2 or 3NT over 2, and double or 3 over 2.

Since South knows there is no agreement over 2, he can't magically hope that North has a takeout of hearts. Therefore he should either pass or double for takeout.

Both parties equally to blame.

2. North didn't do much wrong, he is quite happy to play in 4 if South has some ten-count or other with no values in hearts and four clubs (although it is silly to play inverted raises in competition, you have a cue-raise to show good hands now).

South took a unilateral action that didn't let his partner make any decisions. He should have at least tried 4 before stopping in 5, that at least gives his partner some information upon which to base a decision.

South is to blame.

3. Since you have no agreements, then North can't be expected to bid 4NT as an invitation, because you will probably take it to be blackwood. Likewise bidding 5 as a cue is bound to lead to disaster, South could take it to mean any number of things. North was just being nice and safe and collecting a positive score.

Neither party to blame.

By the way, how can the 2NT rebid be exactly 23-24 HCP? If you had no real agreements, I assume you didn't agree to play a Kokish relay. Really the 2NT rebid is 23+, which means maybe North might have bid 5NT pick-a-slam, with 23+ it would be very unlucky for a slam to go down (his pard holding exactly 23, and the cards not lying nicely). I will give half-a-blame to North.

Total: South 2 blames, North 1 1/2 blames.
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#4 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2011-April-29, 05:01

View PostQuantumcat, on 2011-April-29, 00:51, said:

1. Whatever system you agree to play over a 2 opening, North's double isn't very good. He was not strong enough to double then bid his own suit or to double then bid NT. He should have either bid 2NT (which is exactly what he's got) or passed, then maybe balanced with 2 or 3NT over 2, and double or 3 over 2.

Since South knows there is no agreement over 2, he can't magically hope that North has a takeout of hearts. Therefore he should either pass or double for takeout.

Both parties equally to blame.

2. North didn't do much wrong, he is quite happy to play in 4 if South has some ten-count or other with no values in hearts and four clubs (although it is silly to play inverted raises in competition, you have a cue-raise to show good hands now).

South took a unilateral action that didn't let his partner make any decisions. He should have at least tried 4 before stopping in 5, that at least gives his partner some information upon which to base a decision.

South is to blame.

3. Since you have no agreements, then North can't be expected to bid 4NT as an invitation, because you will probably take it to be blackwood. Likewise bidding 5 as a cue is bound to lead to disaster, South could take it to mean any number of things. North was just being nice and safe and collecting a positive score.

Neither party to blame.

By the way, how can the 2NT rebid be exactly 23-24 HCP? If you had no real agreements, I assume you didn't agree to play a Kokish relay. Really the 2NT rebid is 23+, which means maybe North might have bid 5NT pick-a-slam, with 23+ it would be very unlucky for a slam to go down (his pard holding exactly 23, and the cards not lying nicely). I will give half-a-blame to North.

Total: South 2 blames, North 1 1/2 blames.


North was actually a "she", and no matter how hard I tried I couldn't convince her that 2NT is the right bid on the first hand. That'd solve all the problems as it makes easily. 2S should really have 5, but my guess was that West had a weak 2 in hearts...

On the 2nd one I guess I should have bid 2H looking at it now. We hadn't agreed that that shows a shortage though. 4H (over 4C) would be a good bid, though we hadn't agreed void-showing responses to the inevitable 4NT that would follow it, but it should still get us to the slam. Indeed my fault on this one - and not like me to underbid a hand like that! :(

3rd hand: yea, we had no agreement on transfer-then-4NT sequences. I guess the traditional way to play these is as invitational in NT, since you can cue otherwise, so that would have worked. The problem was more likely to be North somehow interpreting the bid as "20-21"... And it does show 23-24 HCP, I don't think you can play Kokish after 2D since there isn't enough room. Traditionally in Acol with 25-26 HCP you would rebid 3NT, though there are also some variations of Benji where 2C-2D-3NT shows 25-26 freeing up 2D-2H-3NT for those ever-so-common 27-28 balanced hands. :)

What would I have taken 5C over 4S as... probably showing a cue in clubs and a hand with a void (hence unsuitable for RKCB).

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#5 User is offline   han 

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Posted 2011-April-29, 16:04

On the first, both. Unless double showed something I am not familiar with, it was wrong. 2S was just <use your own word>.

On the second, south would have done better by splintering immediately, but fortunately the opponents told north that partner was short in hearts. 4C was very pessimistic.

On the last south could have been more enthusiastic, this is quite a good hand for spades.

Hands 2 and 3 were difficult and if these are the worst hands you ever bid, you are doing quite well. Oh never mind, just remembered hand 1, that was terrible.
Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1.

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#6 User is online   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2011-May-01, 11:41

1. both to blame.

Pretty normal action is to pass then bid 3 second time over 2 to show /. The other hand should pass over 2, not good enough for any other action.

2. I don't like the 2 inverted. Presuming from your system notes 1 guarantees 4, I would bid either 3 (fit) or 3 splinter (which I'm not sure if I'm quite good enough for). The N hand is enormous (if S has Axxxx rather than KJxxx in diamonds and no Q, you're on a 4-3 break for 7), but it's not that easy to see the fifth club and heart void straight off. I think any auction that got me to 6 would pinpoint the spade lead on which it's 50-50, so not terribly unhappy to miss it.

3. We have the arrangement that after any form of strong balanced 2N, we break the transfer to a suit with a good 5 in the suit bid and Qxx or better in the suit transferred to (using 3N and 4M as the 4 card raises) so we'd respond 4 to the transfer. Whether we'd bid the slam is not clear as we have the choice between 22-23 or 24-25 as our ranges, and whether I'd upgrade this 23 with a decent 5 card suit I'm not sure. I suspect your system is more to blame than anything else, playing standard without discussion the big hand cannot do anything else, how would you interpret 4// over 3N ? If N fancies it, I suspect he can pretty much underwrite 5 and could bid 5 over 4 if he's allowed to cue 2nd round controls here.
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#7 User is offline   Quantumcat 

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Posted 2011-May-01, 17:49

View Postahydra, on 2011-April-29, 05:01, said:

North was actually a "she", and no matter how hard I tried I couldn't convince her that 2NT is the right bid on the first hand. That'd solve all the problems as it makes easily. 2S should really have 5, but my guess was that West had a weak 2 in hearts...


Yes, 2NT would be the right bid by North, but South should try a double or a pass, since nobody knows what the weak-2 is, you can't presume partner will have spades, since their double won't be takeout (no suit to takeout of).

Quote

On the 2nd one I guess I should have bid 2H looking at it now. We hadn't agreed that that shows a shortage though. 4H (over 4C) would be a good bid, though we hadn't agreed void-showing responses to the inevitable 4NT that would follow it, but it should still get us to the slam. Indeed my fault on this one - and not like me to underbid a hand like that! :(


If your agreements are inverted raises are still on in competition, then 2 is fine (not that that's a very good agreement!) For most people, 2 would be a weak raise, 6-10, and a good raise would bid 2. 2 does not show a shortage, it just shows a hand too good to bid 2, and you don't have a suit to bid of your own.

However, when your partner bids 4, you know you want to play in at least 5. When your partner hears that you have a singleton heart, he MAY want to play in 6. So you may as well tell him about that before bidding 5, just in case.

Quote

3rd hand: yea, we had no agreement on transfer-then-4NT sequences. I guess the traditional way to play these is as invitational in NT, since you can cue otherwise, so that would have worked. The problem was more likely to be North somehow interpreting the bid as "20-21"... And it does show 23-24 HCP, I don't think you can play Kokish after 2D since there isn't enough room. Traditionally in Acol with 25-26 HCP you would rebid 3NT, though there are also some variations of Benji where 2C-2D-3NT shows 25-26 freeing up 2D-2H-3NT for those ever-so-common 27-28 balanced hands. :)

What would I have taken 5C over 4S as... probably showing a cue in clubs and a hand with a void (hence unsuitable for RKCB).


No one did anything wrong here since you didn't discuss this situation. Obviously it's better to have discussed these things, but you can't discuss everything, so taking the practical approach of ending in a sensible contract and getting a sensible plus score is the best you can do when you get a set of hands like this. Chances are the rest of the field are not seasoned partnerships and will end in the same contract as you anyway. And if there are some non-sensible people without seasoned partnerships, well they might end up in a stupid contract and you get a (shared) top anyway!

The only time being sensible will get you a bad board is when everybody else is a seasoned partnership and finds the slam, AND there is actually a slam on. Being sensible will get you above average most of the time.

BTW "being sensible" means that when you start getting into uncharted territory, just bid a contract you know will make and don't stress your partner out with undiscussed bids or he might bid something stupid and you'll end up in a stupid contract.
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