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Revised robot play

#1 User is offline   edward5958 

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Posted 2012-February-23, 22:58

The style of play for the robots in the ACBL tourneys seems to have changed rather dramatically lately in that they are now more arbitrary and difficult to figure out. Whether I'm right in that perception or not, my success rate has been cut by more than 50% as it is now difficult to even scratch whereas I used to finish high on a regular basis. It's very frustrating, to be sure, so much so that I am about to the point of giving it up altogether.
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#2 User is offline   Bbradley62 

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Posted 2012-February-24, 08:42

Do you have a specific hand, or are you just venting because you're in a slump?
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#3 User is offline   edward5958 

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Posted 2012-February-24, 20:49

View PostBbradley62, on 2012-February-24, 08:42, said:

Do you have a specific hand, or are you just venting because you're in a slump?

I'm venting, to be sure, but it's not a temporal thing. Since August the change has been most perceptible, IMO, and lately it seems worse than ever. It's difficult to quantify, but I believe there is merit to what I am saying and I was just wondering if anyone else was having the same or a similar impression.
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#4 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2012-February-26, 19:31

The last change to the robots was in December, when we announced the v20 update.

http://www.bridgebas...on-20-released/

#5 User is offline   Bbradley62 

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Posted 2012-February-27, 06:19

View Postedward5958, on 2012-February-24, 20:49, said:

... and I was just wondering if anyone else was having the same or a similar impression.
I do not have the same impression.
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#6 User is offline   Bbradley62 

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Posted 2012-February-27, 06:33

View Postbarmar, on 2012-February-26, 19:31, said:

The last change to the robots was in December, when we announced the v20 update.

http://www.bridgebas...on-20-released/

I'm not at all sure how this helps answer the question, but if you're going to give this you might as well also give:
V19, 10/18/2011: http://www.bridgebas...on-19-released/
V18, 9/5/2011: http://www.bridgebas...on-18-released/
V17, 6/7/2011: http://www.bridgebas...9-gib-upgraded/
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#7 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2012-February-27, 16:53

And note that these changes primarily affect bidding, not play. There's a small effect on play because it uses the bidding rules to determine what types of hands are likely, and this is used in the simulations during play and defense.

#8 User is offline   pigpenz 

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Posted 2012-February-29, 11:44

I feel that the robots are always a challenge but they do what they should do as long as you dont lead them astray....sure everyonce in awhile they create a clunker but so do humans
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#9 User is offline   edward5958 

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Posted 2012-March-02, 23:40

View PostBbradley62, on 2012-February-27, 06:19, said:

I do not have the same impression.

Well, thank you for that enlightenment. But I still don't know if anyone else shares my impression, do I?
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#10 User is offline   edward5958 

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Posted 2012-March-02, 23:45

View PostBbradley62, on 2012-February-27, 06:33, said:

I'm not at all sure how this helps answer the question, but if you're going to give this you might as well also give:
V19, 10/18/2011: http://www.bridgebas...on-19-released/
V18, 9/5/2011: http://www.bridgebas...on-18-released/
V17, 6/7/2011: http://www.bridgebas...9-gib-upgraded/

So do these changes support what I am saying? Remember, I said it goes back to August when my results became perceptibly different even though I was then playing in the same manner I always had played when I was much more succesful.
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#11 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2012-March-03, 19:19

View Postedward5958, on 2012-March-02, 23:45, said:

So do these changes support what I am saying? Remember, I said it goes back to August when my results became perceptibly different even though I was then playing in the same manner I always had played when I was much more succesful.

Your original message didn't mention the time frame, so I assumed you were talking about a change noticed in the past few weeks. As I said, we haven't made any changes to the play. Changes to the bidding rules will affect its inferences about the unseen suits, that's it.

If you can't be specific about the manner of the change you perceive, it's hard for us to give a more useful answer. If your results have gotten worse, it could be because the robot opponents are playing better, or because your robot partner is playing worse.

#12 User is offline   USViking 

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Posted 2012-March-05, 16:42

I have also been in a pronounced Robot tournament slump lately. It got so demoralizing
that I have taken a one week+ break from them.

However, I think the poor results are due to an extended lapse in concentration on my part,
although I am not conscious of being distracted.

I have not noticed any more than usual questionable Robot decisions, and to be fair about
it almost all such that I post here turn out to have some reasonable explanation.

FWIW I have kept a spreadsheet record:

For 249 tournaments ending 2/15/12 I scored 51.48% in MP competition and +156.37 in IMP.

For 20 MP tournaments 2/16 through 2/26 the humiliating MP average was 45.77% with 16/20 below 50% and 17/20 below average in player score ranking. During the same stretch I played in 5 IMP tournaments with 3/5 negative results and 4/5 below average player rank.

PS-- now that I think about it I have noticed a few more than usual deals where GiB bids with 3hcp less than bidding box explanation (I wish it could be limited to a max 2hcp "lie"). That is not an excuse for the extent of my recent poor showing, though.
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#13 User is offline   Bbradley62 

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Posted 2012-March-05, 19:52

View Postedward5958, on 2012-March-02, 23:40, said:

But I still don't know if anyone else shares my impression, do I?
It's been 10 days since you asked; the thread has been viewed over 200 times, and no one has chimed in to say that they do share your impression.
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#14 User is offline   Bbradley62 

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Posted 2012-March-05, 20:00

View Postbarmar, on 2012-March-03, 19:19, said:

Your original message didn't mention the time frame, so I assumed you were talking about a change noticed in the past few weeks. As I said, we haven't made any changes to the play. Changes to the bidding rules will affect its inferences about the unseen suits, that's it.

If you can't be specific about the manner of the change you perceive, it's hard for us to give a more useful answer. If your results have gotten worse, it could be because the robot opponents are playing better, or because your robot partner is playing worse.

OP specified his six-month timeframe in post #3, two days before you made your first reply in which you "assumed [he was] talking about a change noticed in the past few weeks".

Also, it appears to me that OP is using the phrase "style of play" to mean "the way GIB plays the game of bridge", not necessarily specifying play of the hand as opposed to bidding.
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#15 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2012-March-06, 10:08

I confess that I simply missed his reference to August in his second post.

Anyway, the updates are SUPPOSED to change the way it plays. Ideally for the better, but if you've gotten used to the old bugs then you may have to relearn (and get used to new bugs).

#16 User is offline   edward5958 

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Posted 2012-March-06, 20:40

View PostBbradley62, on 2012-March-05, 19:52, said:

It's been 10 days since you asked; the thread has been viewed over 200 times, and no one has chimed in to say that they do share your impression.



So, does that mean than noone shares it? Is it possible that some who do share it don't read this board, or that some just don't want to comment? All I really know for sure is that you disagree and that's your prerogative but it doesn't invalidate my impression.
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#17 User is offline   edward5958 

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Posted 2012-March-06, 20:47

View Postbarmar, on 2012-March-03, 19:19, said:

Your original message didn't mention the time frame, so I assumed you were talking about a change noticed in the past few weeks. As I said, we haven't made any changes to the play. Changes to the bidding rules will affect its inferences about the unseen suits, that's it.

If you can't be specific about the manner of the change you perceive, it's hard for us to give a more useful answer. If your results have gotten worse, it could be because the robot opponents are playing better, or because your robot partner is playing worse.


Is this possible? Do the robots predictably play that differently at different tables? If so, it could very well explain what I have been experiencing lately compared to what it was like before last August. Whatever it is, it just seems that I am consistently in the wrong contract now, or that my p and I don't defend properly etc. on a regular basis. All one has to do it look at my mp totals since August compared to before to see the results of what I am saying. And I am (was) playing the same number of tournaments.
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#18 User is offline   edward5958 

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Posted 2012-March-06, 20:56

View Postbarmar, on 2012-March-06, 10:08, said:

I confess that I simply missed his reference to August in his second post.

Anyway, the updates are SUPPOSED to change the way it plays. Ideally for the better, but if you've gotten used to the old bugs then you may have to relearn (and get used to new bugs).

I have always assumed that what I needed to do was just play Bridge and that the robots would do the same. Indeed, I know the bots have their idiosyncrasies, to say the least, but I never realized so much as I do now that it is not so much Bridge as it is figuring out robot machinations. In any event, I would never tolerate such inconsistencies and unpredictability in any live partner and I don't play to continue to waste time and money fooling around with these machines either.
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#19 User is offline   edward5958 

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Posted 2012-March-06, 21:00

View PostUSViking, on 2012-March-05, 16:42, said:

I have also been in a pronounced Robot tournament slump lately. It got so demoralizing
that I have taken a one week+ break from them.

However, I think the poor results are due to an extended lapse in concentration on my part,
although I am not conscious of being distracted.

I have not noticed any more than usual questionable Robot decisions, and to be fair about
it almost all such that I post here turn out to have some reasonable explanation.

FWIW I have kept a spreadsheet record:

For 249 tournaments ending 2/15/12 I scored 51.48% in MP competition and +156.37 in IMP.

For 20 MP tournaments 2/16 through 2/26 the humiliating MP average was 45.77% with 16/20 below 50% and 17/20 below average in player score ranking. During the same stretch I played in 5 IMP tournaments with 3/5 negative results and 4/5 below average player rank.

PS-- now that I think about it I have noticed a few more than usual deals where GiB bids with 3hcp less than bidding box explanation (I wish it could be limited to a max 2hcp "lie"). That is not an excuse for the extent of my recent poor showing, though.

Thanks for your post. I hope your problems get straightened out soon. Of course, it could be that you are beginning to experience the same thing I am talking about here and I would appreciate your letting me know if that turns out to be the case.
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#20 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2012-March-07, 15:46

In the main bridge club, there can be quite a bit of variability in the robots. First, there are 3 kinds of robots:

1. Old BBO version. If you use the old, downloaded BBO, it runs the GIB program locally on your PC. The speed of your CPU is a factor, because GIB limits the amount of time it thinks on a hand, so slower computers will do less thinking. You can also configure the thinking settings.

2. New BBO, basic robots. These are the robots you get when rent for $1/week. They don't do any simulations during the auction, and use a less sophisticated play algorithm.

3. New BBO, advanced robots. These are the robots you get when you rent for $1/day. They simulate during the auction (when the bidding rules allow) and use a more advanced play algorithm after the first few tricks.

Also, the simulations used during bidding and play make use of randomly dealt hands, and the random numbers will be different at each table.

Things are less variable in robot tournaments. These all use advanced robots running on the BBO servers, and the same random hands in simulations (as long as the human bidding and play are identical).

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