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Bidding opposite a pre-empt

Poll: Bidding opposite a pre-empt (45 member(s) have cast votes)

Partner opens 3C, 1st in hand unfavourable at Imps. You hold J8xx QTx Axx Axx. What is your choice of bid?

  1. Pass (27 votes [60.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 60.00%

  2. 3NT (16 votes [35.56%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 35.56%

  3. Other (2 votes [4.44%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 4.44%

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#1 User is offline   spil 

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Posted 2016-August-17, 04:29

I'm not sure what 'Other ' might be:)
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#2 User is offline   eagles123 

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Posted 2016-August-17, 04:54

i think for sure we have to bid 3n - preempting at these colours shows a good hand and way too often we'll miss a vul game if we pass
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#3 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2016-August-17, 05:07

View Posteagles123, on 2016-August-17, 04:54, said:

i think for sure we have to bid 3n - preempting at these colours shows a good hand and way too often we'll miss a vul game if we pass


Depends on your preempting/opening style, most of the hands where game is good would be opened 1 by us. There is a serious danger that partner has say xx, x, xxx, KQJ10xxx and you lose the first 9 or 10 tricks for more than opps game which they might not have bid anyway.
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#4 User is offline   Manastorm 

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Posted 2016-August-17, 05:41

Pass. Both majors are almost wide open. Opponens aren't going to lead safe and wait for you to cash 7 clubs.
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#5 User is offline   1eyedjack 

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Posted 2016-August-17, 06:31

Close, but I think that it just about meets the 40% test, at least the way I play pre-empts at vul v non. Hope they don't double, mind.
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#6 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2016-August-17, 06:36

edit: misread the situation
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#7 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2016-August-17, 06:46

View Postspil, on 2016-August-17, 04:29, said:

I'm not sure what 'Other ' might be:)


4 I guess.
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#8 User is offline   The_Badger 

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Posted 2016-August-17, 08:32

When I posted this comment, 5 had chosen 'Pass' and 5 had chosen '3NT' and that about sums it up. Even I cannot quite make my mind up over this.

3NT will possibly stop the opponents from balancing, but there again it could go down heavily. If you get doubled there's always 4 as a cop out. Pass looks wimpy but is sensible as there's no guarantee the opponents have game or will bid game, but it makes it easier for the opponents, especially non-vulnerable, to come in.

Given that pre-empts are getting flakier and flakier these days, even at adverse vulnerability, and especially in 1st position, I'm with Cyberyeti (see comment) on this one as that's a solid pre-empt, so Pass it's going to be, reluctantly.
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#9 User is offline   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2016-August-17, 08:40

3nt here but only because of agreed partnership style on what a 3 bid looks like on this seat and vul. Needs some luck to make but very rarely goes out the door (partner has clubs with a diamond card and both majors are foul).

Fast pass playing with anyone but my regular partner.
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#10 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2016-August-17, 09:32

3nt will run if they double.

I expect the passers are assuming a pretty poor hand from partner, the bidders a much stronger hand.
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#11 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2016-August-17, 09:52

View Postmike777, on 2016-August-17, 09:32, said:

3nt will run if they double.

I expect the passers are assuming a pretty poor hand from partner, the bidders a much stronger hand.


It's not the strength assumed, but that denied, if KQJxxxx and an ace or king is a 1 opener for you, then you're shooting at a pretty narrow target if you assume R/G partner will have a decent suit.
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#12 User is offline   mike777 

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Posted 2016-August-17, 10:05

View PostCyberyeti, on 2016-August-17, 09:52, said:

It's not the strength assumed, but that denied, if KQJxxxx and an ace or king is a 1 opener for you, then you're shooting at a pretty narrow target if you assume R/G partner will have a decent suit.



exactly if that is a 3c bid which it is at this vul then try 3nt.


Of course if you open with KQJxxxx and an outside K that is a pretty wide ranging one level opener...
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#13 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2016-August-17, 11:16

If partner has outside ace and KQ you have nine top
If partner has outside King or worse you either have 5 top losers in the majors or on a lead or possibly switch for -1
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#14 User is offline   Phil 

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Posted 2016-August-17, 11:35

I've heard a rumor that plus scores are nice at IMPs. 3N looks incredibly spewy to me.
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#15 User is offline   spil 

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Posted 2016-August-17, 16:11

Many seem to be assuming that we have 7 club tricks.
Is Kxx x Qx QJTxxxx not acceptable as an opener or Axx x xxx KJTxxx or any other number of hands where we don't have 7, or even 6, guaranteed running club tricks.
We are not cold for 3NT opposite a very sound 1 club opener eg Kxx Kx Qx KQJxxx, although we have all been in worse.
Opener actually held AT x JTxx KJT9xx...When clubs didn't come in and JH was wrong that was 5 off.
Admittedly oppos now have a very good 4H contract and no double of 3NT is possible in practice.
Nevertheless I think 3NT, if bid to actually make, is optimistic beyond words...if bid tactically then I have sympathy...vulnerability be damned.
Perhaps my standards for pre-empting are too loose:)
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#16 User is offline   billw55 

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Posted 2016-August-18, 06:43

View Postspil, on 2016-August-17, 16:11, said:

Many seem to be assuming that we have 7 club tricks.
Is Kxx x Qx QJTxxxx not acceptable as an opener or Axx x xxx KJTxxx or any other number of hands where we don't have 7, or even 6, guaranteed running club tricks.
We are not cold for 3NT opposite a very sound 1 club opener eg Kxx Kx Qx KQJxxx, although we have all been in worse.
Opener actually held AT x JTxx KJT9xx...When clubs didn't come in and JH was wrong that was 5 off.
Admittedly oppos now have a very good 4H contract and no double of 3NT is possible in practice.
Nevertheless I think 3NT, if bid to actually make, is optimistic beyond words...if bid tactically then I have sympathy...vulnerability be damned.
Perhaps my standards for pre-empting are too loose:)

For me, at unfavorable vulnerability, opening preempts should be a solid suit and 7 cards. The actual hand does not qualify. The conclusion is that to make a good choice here, you must understand your partner's preempt style. This is unlikely to be the case with a pickup partner, so I pass.
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#17 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2016-August-18, 11:57

If my partner is not too modern or too unscientific and since I am an aggressive bidder i bid 3 NT and should make it comfortably.I will stay put if doubled.If 3NT goes down I
I won't mind it and shall discuss after the deal is over.
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#18 User is offline   kenberg 

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Posted 2016-August-18, 12:21

View Postspil, on 2016-August-17, 16:11, said:

Many seem to be assuming that we have 7 club tricks.
Is Kxx x Qx QJTxxxx not acceptable as an opener or Axx x xxx KJTxxx or any other number of hands where we don't have 7, or even 6, guaranteed running club tricks.
We are not cold for 3NT opposite a very sound 1 club opener eg Kxx Kx Qx KQJxxx, although we have all been in worse.
Opener actually held AT x JTxx KJT9xx...When clubs didn't come in and JH was wrong that was 5 off.
Admittedly oppos now have a very good 4H contract and no double of 3NT is possible in practice.
Nevertheless I think 3NT, if bid to actually make, is optimistic beyond words...if bid tactically then I have sympathy...vulnerability be damned.
Perhaps my standards for pre-empting are too loose:)


I am assuming 7 club tricks and I am bidding 3NT to make. "Assuming 7 club tricks" does not mean that I am certain, but I do regard it as very likely. Of course that only brings me up to 8. I need a little luck but I have been kind to the unfortunate and the universe owes me.

Anyway, 3NT.

And I am not that big on 3C at these colors holding Kxx x Qx QJTxxxx. If my lho plays 4H, as well he might, I don't really want partner to start the defense by laying down the club ace. Nor am I sure I want any club lead except maybe the K, and I am not so sure I want to suggest to declarer that if trumps don't split it is apt to be me who is short. I don't go ballistic if partner opens 3C on this, but as his partner I am not going to bid on the assumption that he has done so.

Partner's 3C opening makes everyone guess. I guess 3NT.

Added: I think the main danger is not the lack of nine tricks but rather that they may take the first five.
Ken
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#19 User is offline   forgo 

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Posted 2016-August-18, 12:43

IMPS always 3nt
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#20 User is offline   forgo 

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Posted 2016-August-18, 12:49

just read others and saw hand... player who opens 3 clubs in first seat unfav vun does not understand game!!
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