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STOP card used out of turn

#1 User is offline   661_Pete 

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Posted 2019-April-18, 12:08

This is a curious one.

We use STOP cards for all jump bids, including opening two bids or more. I was dealer, and my LHO pulled out her STOP card in error before I'd made a call - but we drew attention to the error before she was able to pull out any bid card. We weren't sure what to do about this, so we called the TD - and he was perplexed too, so he consulted with one of our other TDs.

Apparently there's nothing about this in the rule book, but we felt that the offender had (unintentionally) conveyed some sort of UI to her partner - even if she hadn't informed as to what sort of bid she wanted to make.

In the end the TD ruled that we should ignore the out-of-turn STOP card, and bid as if nothing had happened. I wasn't too sure about this, but accepted the ruling of course.

As it turned out I had a weak 2 opener which I bid, and LHO (using the STOP card correctly) then overcalled 4 which was passed. Opponents had a cold 6 so my partner and I weren't too unhappy!
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#2 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-April-18, 12:43

I don't know if this has changed, but it certainly used to be the case that a stop card is not a bid although it can convey UI.
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#3 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2019-April-18, 12:55

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-April-18, 12:43, said:

I don't know if this has changed, but it certainly used to be the case that a stop card is not a bid although it can convey UI.

A stop card is certainly not a call, nor even part of a call.

Exposing a STOP card (or saying STOP) is more or less equivalent to verbally saying that the player intends to make a call that requires STOP, and as such gives partner UI.

The correct ruling is to withdraw the STOP card and just let the auction continue.
The Director should stand ready to award an adjusted score if he (after play of the board is completed) finds that the exposure of the STOP card could have damaged opponents.
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#4 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-April-18, 14:14

Our regulations say nothing explicit about this, but I would interpret the Laws as pran does.
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#5 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2019-April-18, 15:06

So would I, in England or in North America.
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#6 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2019-April-18, 23:34

I thought the stop card has been abolished.
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#7 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2019-April-19, 00:28

View PostHardVector, on 2019-April-18, 23:34, said:

I thought the stop card has been abolished.

I believe there are two schools on how to use the STOP procedure:
1 (like we have in Norway): The player showing STOP is responsible for timing the duration of the stop.
2: The player showing STOP withdraws the STOP card immediately and his LHO is responsible for timing the duration of the stop.

I shall not be surprised if those using the second school have abandoned the use of stop.
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#8 User is online   gordontd 

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Posted 2019-April-19, 01:17

View PostHardVector, on 2019-April-18, 23:34, said:

I thought the stop card has been abolished.

Only in the ACBL.
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London UK
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#9 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2019-April-19, 10:36

View Postgordontd, on 2019-April-19, 01:17, said:

Only in the ACBL.

I still had my stop cards sitting loose in the box that I carry my bidding boxes around in (our tiny club doesn't have a place to store equipment, so a number of players bring their own bidding boxes), just in case they reverse this. I finally tossed them this week.

#10 User is offline   weejonnie 

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Posted 2019-April-19, 11:52

View Postbarmar, on 2019-April-19, 10:36, said:

I still had my stop cards sitting loose in the box that I carry my bidding boxes around in (our tiny club doesn't have a place to store equipment, so a number of players bring their own bidding boxes), just in case they reverse this. I finally tossed them this week.

Throwing your stop cards is painful
But nothing compared to the pain
Of throwing away some, throwing away all the others
And finding you need them again.
The hardest director decisions inevitably are caused by the first failure to call at the appropriate time.
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No one ever becomes a TD because of the money. They do it because they want to help bridge flourish in their club, region or nation.
Getting rid of one rude player might result in the arrival of four pleasant ones.
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#11 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-April-19, 14:30

View Postgordontd, on 2019-April-19, 01:17, said:

Only in the ACBL.


It is a pity, because the STOP procedure protects the opponents. I think that the stop card should be used more, not less (eg the Norway procedure).

I remember some kind of survey that read (possibly not verbatim, but I don’t quite remember) “since the ACBL is the be-all and end-all, should we follow our lords and masters and abolish the stop card too?”
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#12 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2019-April-19, 16:10

View PostVampyr, on 2019-April-19, 14:30, said:

It is a pity, because the STOP procedure protects the opponents. I think that the stop card should be used more, not less (eg the Norway procedure).

I remember some kind of survey that read (possibly not verbatim, but I don’t quite remember) “since the ACBL is the be-all and end-all, should we follow our lords and masters and abolish the stop card too?”

I believe I have read somewhere that the ACBL procedure was for the skip bidder to just flash his STOP card (or say "stop") and that his LHO then was responsible for waiting approximately 10 seconds before calling? If this is correct I can very well understand it if ACBL has abandoned their STOP procedure.

The problem is that LHO needs the allotted time to consider his call and should not in addition be bothered with timing the delay.

Our Norwegian procedure is that the skip bidder exposes the STOP card (or says "stop") and is responsible for waiting 10 seconds before taking it back (or saying "continue"), after which his LHO may call.
(And if the skip bidder "offers" less than 10 seconds his LHO is still entitled to the full 10 seconds delay.)

Incidentally, whenever there is a BIT claim after a call which requires STOP the first thing we verify is whether correct STOP procedure had been observed.
If not then we just order the auction to continue without any rectification (except possibly if the BIT had been extreme).
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#13 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2019-April-19, 22:36

The procedure was to display the stop card, then make the call, then remove the stop card. It was and still is up to the LHO of the skip bidder to pause the required "approximately ten seconds".

The current wording is

Quote

THE STOP CARD

The Stop Card should not be used. No verbal or visual Skip-Bid Warning is required. Following the Skip Bid, LHO is obligated to wait approximately 10 seconds (while giving the appearance of studying his hand and not in excess time to determine a choice of bids) before making a call.
NOTE: If a player accidently uses the stop card, there is no penalty. It is each player’s responsibility to maintain appropriate tempo at all times.

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#14 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2019-April-20, 00:58

View Postblackshoe, on 2019-April-19, 22:36, said:

The procedure was to display the stop card, then make the call, then remove the stop card. It was and still is up to the LHO of the skip bidder to pause the required "approximately ten seconds".


Precisely. And that placed an unnecessary burden on LHO who has far more important matters to consider than measuring time.

In Norway the player who displays the stop card is responsible for informing his LHO when 10 seconds have elapsed.
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#15 User is offline   661_Pete 

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Posted 2019-April-20, 01:43

To be honest, I don't see much point in the STOP card, unless it's used to enforce the 10-second delay (which is not the case at our club). But it's the club rule so we go along with it.

Re throwing out unwanted bid cards: I remember that, at another table, one player announced that their "7NT" bid card was missing, and didn't turn up after a brief search. We all laughed at this, and suggested that if they really had occasion to bid 7NT they could do so verbally! In the end the missing card was discovered on another table.

Another point re my OP. The opponent's inadvertant exposure of their STOP card was actually a help to me, on that particular deal - although I wasn't going to say so! I was considering whether to open a weak two, or to pass. Now, since I had a weak hand, this made it more probable that LHO had a strong hand - 2NT or 2 opener. So this gave me the incentive to open 2!

At any rate, we ended up with a plus score at MPs. :lol:
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#16 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-April-20, 03:32

View Post661_Pete, on 2019-April-20, 01:43, said:



Another point re my OP. The opponent's inadvertant exposure of their STOP card was actually a help to me, on that particular deal - although I wasn't going to say so! I was considering whether to open a weak two, or to pass. Now, since I had a weak hand, this made it more probable that LHO had a strong hand - 2NT or 2 opener. So this gave me the incentive to open 2!

Must remember to fiddle with the STOP card next time I have a yarborough...
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#17 User is offline   lamford 

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Posted 2019-April-20, 04:28

View PostVampyr, on 2019-April-19, 14:30, said:

I think that the stop card should be used more, not less (eg the Norway procedure).

So, you are in favour of Norway Plus? One problem is the time it is held, which varies between one and eight seconds. And the next person often bids before it is removed, and that gives as much UI, but I have never seen it punished. I would abolish it, but still require someone to take ten seconds after any jump bid.
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#18 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-April-20, 07:14

View Postlamford, on 2019-April-20, 04:28, said:

So, you are in favour of Norway Plus? One problem is the time it is held, which varies between one and eight seconds. And the next person often bids before it is removed, and that gives as much UI, but I have never seen it punished. I would abolish it, but still require someone to take ten seconds after any jump bid.


This burden is what Pran has written about in several posts, and I am surprised you don’t see the problem. Why should a dozy opponent even be required to notice that a skip bud has been made? In fact I believe that if no Stop card is used (or is prematurely withdrawn) you should be allowed to take as long or short as you like. Better players will hold the card for 10 seconds, and will not bid before the card is put away, I am not as concerned with what weak players do.

Anyway, I was under the impression that it was in Norway that the Stop card is us d for any bid in a competitive auction at the three level or higher. It must be somewhere else, but I thoroughly approve.

And I do think that Norway Plus could work.
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#19 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-April-20, 08:29

View PostVampyr, on 2019-April-20, 07:14, said:


Anyway, I was under the impression that it was in Norway that the Stop card is us d for any bid in a competitive auction at the three level or higher. It must be somewhere else, but I thoroughly approve.


This might have some merit when the opponents are still competing. But much if not most high level bidding is unopposed,and adding an extra minute to a control bidding sequence would leave little time to play.
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#20 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-April-20, 09:58

View Postpescetom, on 2019-April-20, 08:29, said:

This might have some merit when the opponents are still competing. But much if not most high level bidding is unopposed,and adding an extra minute to a control bidding sequence would leave little time to play.


Yes, no need if the opponents have dropped out, but in any case we usually get 7.5 minutes per board, so even using up a minute doesn’t make much of a difference.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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