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What is your rebid?

#21 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-April-25, 11:17

View PostHardVector, on 2019-April-25, 10:35, said:

My personal preference is for 3. After 3, your partner bids 4. Now what?


I bid 4 showing this sort of thing, if partner bids 5 I probably bid 6
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#22 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-April-25, 11:23

View Postgszes, on 2019-April-25, 10:36, said:

For those that feel 4c should be gerber please concoct a hand or two where that makes sense. I would vastly prefer 4c as a self splinter setting spades as trumps. If I were a queen stronger 4c would be my bid of choice.

I said that 4C would probably be Gerber for most 2/1 players, not that it should be.
I quite like your proposal of a self splinter but I don't think many play it that way.
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#23 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2019-April-25, 11:26

View Postpescetom, on 2019-April-25, 11:23, said:

I said that 4C would probably be Gerber for most 2/1 players, not that it should be. I quite like your proposal of a self splinter but I don't think many play it that way.
Gordon's auto-splinter is fairly standard 2/1

View PostHardVector, on 2019-April-25, 10:33, said:

4 as a self splinter is reasonable, but you give up on finding a heart fit. Give partner --- KQxxx Kxxx xxxx and you've missed a heart slam.
Gordon's 4 auto-splinter would probably get you to 6M
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#24 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2019-April-25, 15:59

I am late to the thread and my suggested answer requires partnership agreement, but is, in my view, something regular partners ought to consider.

1S 1N 3C

this is either: a 2-suited hand with spades and clubs, or a 2- suited hand with spades and exactly 4 hearts, or a single-suited hand with spades, a trick short of a 2C opening bid. In all cases, it is gf.

Responder will usually (probably 90% or more) bid 3D as a relay to allow opener to describe his hand.

Over 3D: 3H is the 4 card heart suit, 3S the big spade hand, and both 3N and 4C are blacks: opener will bid 3N with 5=4 blacks, and will bid 4C with a marked 2-suiter with no interest in 3N.

This gadget solves a lot of problems.

Imagine you are responder with, say, 1=3=(4-5), with a weak 4 card minor. 1S 1N 3H...do you raise to 4H? Probably not best opposite a 5-4 hand. Do you bid 3N, and trust partner to pull to 4H with 5-5? Probably not best if he catches you with 10 minor cards. The gadget allows 1S 1N 3H to promise at least 5-5.

It is also great for the big one-suiters. Here, for example, if we bid 3D and catch a raise, we have no choice but to commit to 4S, which may well be the wrong game. This sort of hand is almost always good in 3N, but of course it is dangerous to commit to 3N over 1N. Were we to bid 3C, then over 3D bid 3S, we could comfortably pass 3N. Partner rates to have a soft hand. Yes, they may still run clubs, but the odds have swung in our favour, since partner, knowing of our hand type, chose 3N.

I learned this gadget from the Bridge World: named after Rubens, it is called Jeff's Magic Elixir.
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#25 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-April-26, 02:20

View Postmikeh, on 2019-April-25, 15:59, said:

I am late to the thread and my suggested answer requires partnership agreement, but is, in my view, something regular partners ought to consider.

1S 1N 3C

this is either: a 2-suited hand with spades and clubs, or a 2- suited hand with spades and exactly 4 hearts, or a single-suited hand with spades, a trick short of a 2C opening bid. In all cases, it is gf.

Responder will usually (probably 90% or more) bid 3D as a relay to allow opener to describe his hand.

Over 3D: 3H is the 4 card heart suit, 3S the big spade hand, and both 3N and 4C are blacks: opener will bid 3N with 5=4 blacks, and will bid 4C with a marked 2-suiter with no interest in 3N.

This gadget solves a lot of problems.

Imagine you are responder with, say, 1=3=(4-5), with a weak 4 card minor. 1S 1N 3H...do you raise to 4H? Probably not best opposite a 5-4 hand. Do you bid 3N, and trust partner to pull to 4H with 5-5? Probably not best if he catches you with 10 minor cards. The gadget allows 1S 1N 3H to promise at least 5-5.

It is also great for the big one-suiters. Here, for example, if we bid 3D and catch a raise, we have no choice but to commit to 4S, which may well be the wrong game. This sort of hand is almost always good in 3N, but of course it is dangerous to commit to 3N over 1N. Were we to bid 3C, then over 3D bid 3S, we could comfortably pass 3N. Partner rates to have a soft hand. Yes, they may still run clubs, but the odds have swung in our favour, since partner, knowing of our hand type, chose 3N.

I learned this gadget from the Bridge World: named after Rubens, it is called Jeff's Magic Elixir.


Nice gadget, what would you do if you didn't have this available ?
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#26 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2019-April-26, 05:14

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-April-26, 02:20, said:

Nice gadget, what would you do if you didn't have this available ?

3N. Too many losers for 3D. 3N seems like the most probable route to a making game. Yes, could go wrong for alll kinds of reasons, but so could anything else.
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#27 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2019-April-26, 10:31

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-April-25, 11:17, said:

I bid 4 showing this sort of thing, if partner bids 5 I probably bid 6

Well, you are the only one to respond to this part of the thread, so I guess I'll wrap it up here.

I don't really like an initial 3n or a 4s bid here as you put a lot of pressure on partner to bid further. I've always found it profitable to "bid where you live". In other words, show the values you have so partner can make an informed decision.

Partner's hand is:

I was hoping for more discussion on the 4d bid, I was wondering how many people have discussed this kind of situation. I play with my regular partners that after a strong jump shift, such as 3d, weakest bids are rebidding your own suit, rebidding partner's first suit as a temporizing move, rebidding 3n showing values outside of partner's suits, or raising a minor straight to game. So we prefer having a 4d bid mean more than 5d, although some partners disagree on what a 4d bid should ask. Some like it as minorwood, but I hate that by a responders hand. So 4d here was meant as forward going and cooperative for more. 4s puts a lot of pressure on partner to evaluate the 3 fast club losers and continue on. For that reason, I like 4h, bid where you live. Partner won't think you all of a sudden found a 4th heart and should treat it as a cuebid. Over that, partner can bid 5h or 6d (5d would be cowardly) and I would infer that partner has at least a doubleton spade as with shortness, they would continue to cuebid. After that, 6s is not difficult.

I found this hand interesting in that it was play 17 times and only one pair bid the slam and only one other pair bid to 5s looking for more. 15 other pairs stayed in 4s, which indicated to me that this was a difficult hand for standard American or 2/1 systems.
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#28 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-April-26, 10:58

View PostHardVector, on 2019-April-26, 10:31, said:

I found this hand interesting in that it was play 17 times and only one pair bid the slam and only one other pair bid to 5s looking for more. 15 other pairs stayed in 4s, which indicated to me that this was a difficult hand for standard American or 2/1 systems.


We would bid (somewhat bent Acol)

1-2
2N(GF not necessarily balanced)-3(5+, <4)
4(cue, 1st or 2nd)-4(waiting, 4 would have been KC and you want partner to ask)
4(KC)-4N(1)
5(Q?)-5(yes and K)
6 at MPs
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#29 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2019-April-26, 13:08

View PostHardVector, on 2019-April-26, 10:31, said:

Well, you are the only one to respond to this part of the thread, so I guess I'll wrap it up here.

I don't really like an initial 3n or a 4s bid here as you put a lot of pressure on partner to bid further. I've always found it profitable to "bid where you live". In other words, show the values you have so partner can make an informed decision.

Partner's hand is:

I was hoping for more discussion on the 4d bid, I was wondering how many people have discussed this kind of situation. I play with my regular partners that after a strong jump shift, such as 3d, weakest bids are rebidding your own suit, rebidding partner's first suit as a temporizing move, rebidding 3n showing values outside of partner's suits, or raising a minor straight to game. So we prefer having a 4d bid mean more than 5d, although some partners disagree on what a 4d bid should ask. Some like it as minorwood, but I hate that by a responders hand. So 4d here was meant as forward going and cooperative for more. 4s puts a lot of pressure on partner to evaluate the 3 fast club losers and continue on. For that reason, I like 4h, bid where you live. Partner won't think you all of a sudden found a 4th heart and should treat it as a cuebid. Over that, partner can bid 5h or 6d (5d would be cowardly) and I would infer that partner has at least a doubleton spade as with shortness, they would continue to cuebid. After that, 6s is not difficult.

I found this hand interesting in that it was play 17 times and only one pair bid the slam and only one other pair bid to 5s looking for more. 15 other pairs stayed in 4s, which indicated to me that this was a difficult hand for standard American or 2/1 systems.



It is very difficult to be objective on these hands, once we know the actual layout. That layout looks very bad for my 3N choice :(

Having said that, I do think that a pass of 3N by responder doesn't do justice to the hand, which surely has some slam potential and, when not, should afford safety at 4N (and in any movement over 3N, a bid by either partner of 4N must be an offer to play there).

So what should South do?

At the risk of allowing my knowledge to influence me, I think S is worth a 4D call: natural with mild slam ambitions.

Over that, North has an enormous hand: I cannot see not driving to slam opposite this. I would expect a good 5 card suit or a decent 6 card suit, in order for south to move, and off course North can count tricks opposite as little as x xxx KQxxxx xxx, when surely South has more than that.

The key is whether South should show the diamonds. I think he should since slam is probably not great opposite many 18-19 counts unless partner 'likes' diamonds. For one thing, the partnership may need to be able to ruff a spade in order to generate an important trick.

It is perhaps ironic that the risky 3N, imo, offers a better chance for slam than the fake jumpshift that catches such remarkable support. The problem is that after 1S 1N 3D 4D, North has a routine 4S, and south may feel he has already shown some mild interest in a high level diamond contract, so to move again shows 'more'. Whereas, on my auction, South has shown nothing at all as of 3N, so can afford to show his hand via 4D and now North really can't help but bid slam. However a lot of players, unaware of how to evaluate hands, would simply pass 3N, not understanding the power of that KQJxx holding, and/or maybe lacking confidence that the auction can always end at 4N.

Say opener had AKQJxx Axx x Axx....over 4D, opener can offer 4S. With, say, AKJxx Axx xx AQx, opener offers 4N.
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#30 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2019-April-26, 13:20

Also: after the OP suggested auction:

1S 1N 3D 4D 4H

My suggestion is that allowing responder to use keycard is almost never smart: it is virtually impossible for responder to know where to place the contract after a keycard ask and, in the meantime, there is a very powerful use for 4N, which I like to use in all minor auctions where we are cuebidding at the 4-level.

4N by either player, provided that we are clearly in slam mode in the minor, simply says: I have reason to remain interested but can't cue anything.

Here, 4N over 4H denies a club control while still affirming some interest: north would need to be comatose to not bid slam (probably 6S)

When clubs is our suit, and the bidding has reached 4M, 4N says that I am too strong to sign off in 5C but not strong enough to drive to slam by bypassing 5C.

FWIW, I seem to recall that Frances Hinden also played this style...whether she does now, I don't know.

It takes getting use to because most of us have been so conditioned to use blackwood in slam auctions, but in my experience this approach is far more powerful. In addition, in most minor slam auctions, one can usually afford to keycard earlier: the 4N gadget only applies over a cue of 4M, so one can use kickback (my preference) or minorwoood (ugh...I hate minorwood except in very narrowly defined auctions) or 4N keycard.

Having said all that, were I to have rebid 3D, no way I don't bid 4S over 4D. And that probably kills the slam.
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#31 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2019-April-26, 17:32

View Postmikeh, on 2019-April-26, 13:08, said:

Having said that, I do think that a pass of 3N by responder doesn't do justice to the hand, which surely has some slam potential and, when not, should afford safety at 4N (and in any movement over 3N, a bid by either partner of 4N must be an offer to play there)


The problem with 3n, is that A) you put pressure on partner to keep the auction alive, and B) partner may have the hand that is going to give YOU problems. Say it goes 1s-1n-3n-4h? Should you continue bidding? Does partner promise extra values? If yes, then partner passes 3n when you have a heart fit. This is one of the reasons most people like 3d, it's the lowest available game force that allows the most communication to occur and fewer guesses.

Quote

4N by either player, provided that we are clearly in slam mode in the minor, simply says: I have reason to remain interested but can't cue anything.


This idea I like very much.
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#32 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2019-April-27, 01:08

View PostHardVector, on 2019-April-26, 17:32, said:

The problem with 3n, is that A) you put pressure on partner to keep the auction alive, and B) partner may have the hand that is going to give YOU problems. Say it goes 1s-1n-3n-4h? Should you continue bidding? Does partner promise extra values? If yes, then partner passes 3n when you have a heart fit. This is one of the reasons most people like 3d, it's the lowest available game force that allows the most communication to occur and fewer guesses.



This idea I like very much.

It is natural, when one dislikes someone elseís choice, to perceive the problems that such a choice may engender more starkly than is perhaps warranted, and to underestimate the problems our choice could create.

3N causes issues when partner has hearts. 3D causes problems when partner has clubs, which do you think is the likely, given our shape?

In addition, 3D causes problems in that it is impossible to play the 9 trick game. He canít bid 3H as a probe: not if itís natural. And if he plays it as a probe, you canít find hearts. So over 3D, is he supposed to know to bid 3N with clubs stopped, with xxx in hearts?

3D can win, obviously. But it is hardly a panacea. 3N simply looks like the game that rates to make most often, esoecially in real life. Double dummy analysis is a waste of time on these hands, since in real life opening leader may not have an obvious or even plausible winning lead.

Finally, I donít think that 3D ought to get anyone to slam. Opener has really bad diamonds for slam purposes after the 4D raise, while he has self-sufficient spades. So bidding 4S is clear and I donít think Responder can jeopardize the major suit game by looking for a magic slam. Maybe at imps, but surely not at MPs.

Is 3N demonstrably better than 3D? I canít say. I just know that my gut tells me to bid 3N. Of course what it should be telling me is to play a good strong club method. Anyone think Meckwell would miss slam here?
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#33 User is offline   Flinthos 

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Posted 2019-April-27, 09:38

Playing gazilli, you can play 3 as GF and 2(gazilli) followed by 3 as invitational.
In that case, my preferred bid is a direct 3.

In the case that I'm not playing gazilli, bidding 4 Spades will do just fine. I'm expecting 3 to get us to bad slams too frequently when partner has good diamond support.
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#34 User is offline   MatthiasK 

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Posted 2019-April-27, 13:51

View Postmikeh, on 2019-April-27, 01:08, said:

...
Of course what it should be telling me is to play a good strong club method. Anyone think Meckwell would miss slam here?


I don't think a strong club as refined as Meckwell's is required here.
After
1 - 1 (strong; minimum positive)
1 - 2
3
it's hard to miss slam.
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#35 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-April-27, 17:28

View PostMatthiasK, on 2019-April-27, 13:51, said:

I don't think a strong club as refined as Meckwell's is required here.
After
1 - 1 (strong; minimum positive)
1 - 2
3
it's hard to miss slam.


1973 Precision will do this:

1-2
2(alpha)-2N(0-3 controls, <Qxx)
3(gamma)-3N(5 card suit, 2 top hons)

Now a little cueing will discover the K and you can take your pick of 6/
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