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Response to (3C)-X

#1 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2019-April-27, 01:41



IMPs, none vul. Is there a textbook bid for this kind of moderate-strength, no clear direction hand after a pre-empt?

Thanks,

ahydra
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#2 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2019-April-27, 09:47

Urgh!

There would be a merit to play 4D as forcing.

And if we cue bid and correct partner’s likely 4H to 4S, would they get the message? Or would it show a strong hand with good S?

C look 7222 around the table or maybe partner is singleton and S has a weak balanced and did not dare raise the preempt. If 3NT persuadés N to lead sth else than C or underlead his AK...but I wouldn’t dare.
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#3 User is offline   DozyDom 

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Posted 2019-April-27, 13:59

Jump to game in spades and you'll probably be fine. I certainly don't see any merit to playing 4D as forcing; I don't see much merit to going for 5D instead.

Edit: actually, there is merit to playing 4D as forcing; I just got mixed up for a second. I still don't play it as forcing, though.
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#4 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2019-April-27, 18:14

4s. What's the problem? I consider this an unexciting 11 count (I'm throwing away the 2 club points because they look useless).
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#5 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2019-April-28, 02:51

Well, the problem is that partner might only have three spades, and even a 4-4 fit would likely split 4-1. Something else could easily be the right contract such as 3NT, 5D or even 6D. Without good agreements such as 4C then pull 4H to 4S, or 4D forcing, the best shot probably is 4S and pray. I actually chose 4D, hoping to bid 4S over 4H or play 5D.

Actually partner had five spades! Only thing is, his hand was KQT9x JT9xx x xx... I did look under the table for the two aces he'd dropped, but didn't find them. My 4D contract went five off. Surprisingly the double was also replicated at the other table but there West chose 4S for one off.

ahydra
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#6 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2019-April-28, 12:01

View Postahydra, on 2019-April-28, 02:51, said:


Only thing is, his hand was KQT9x JT9xx x xx...

ahydra

That is the hand who bids 4C as a reply to the X when on a good day. But Xing with this? At both tables?
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#7 User is offline   eagles123 

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Posted 2019-April-28, 12:52

View Postahydra, on 2019-April-28, 02:51, said:

Well, the problem is that partner might only have three spades, and even a 4-4 fit would likely split 4-1. Something else could easily be the right contract such as 3NT, 5D or even 6D. Without good agreements such as 4C then pull 4H to 4S, or 4D forcing, the best shot probably is 4S and pray. I actually chose 4D, hoping to bid 4S over 4H or play 5D.

Actually partner had five spades! Only thing is, his hand was KQT9x JT9xx x xx... I did look under the table for the two aces he'd dropped, but didn't find them. My 4D contract went five off. Surprisingly the double was also replicated at the other table but there West chose 4S for one off.

ahydra


ahydra partner in insane bid shocker :lol:
"definitely that's what I like to play when I'm playing standard - I want to be able to bid diamonds because bidding good suits is important in bridge" - Meckstroth's opinion on weak 2 diamond
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#8 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2019-April-28, 14:54

View Postahydra, on 2019-April-28, 02:51, said:

Well, the problem is that partner might only have three spades, and even a 4-4 fit would likely split 4-1. Something else could easily be the right contract such as 3NT, 5D or even 6D. Without good agreements such as 4C then pull 4H to 4S, or 4D forcing, the best shot probably is 4S and pray. I actually chose 4D, hoping to bid 4S over 4H or play 5D.

Actually partner had five spades! Only thing is, his hand was KQT9x JT9xx x xx... I did look under the table for the two aces he'd dropped, but didn't find them. My 4D contract went five off. Surprisingly the double was also replicated at the other table but there West chose 4S for one off.

ahydra

I'm not promising that 4s would be a slam dunk, I'm just saying that is the most likely game. So you get to the most likely game and tell partner you have actual values if they should be interested in slam. This kind of situation comes up in ordinary 1 level takeout doubles as well. You hold xxx Qxxx Qxxxx x and the auction has gone (1s)-x-p-. Do you bid hearts, or diamonds? If you are playing MPs, you should bid hearts because it scores better.

Preempts force you to guess. If your partner is going to continue to take actions like this with 6 counts, then the guess amounts to the same kinds of guesses people make on a roulette wheel...except you wont get the 30:1 payoff when you are right.
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#9 User is offline   ahydra 

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Posted 2019-April-28, 15:16

View Posteagles123, on 2019-April-28, 12:52, said:

ahydra partner in insane bid shocker :lol:


Shocking indeed, as normally it's me making the insane bids :)

ahydra
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#10 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2019-April-29, 13:41

I think the least odorous bid by your partner is 3 . Then, you should have little problem raising to 4 for a push.

After a 3 level overcall over a 3 of a minor preempt, advancer has to consider that overcaller might have strained to make a bid. Otherwise, the opponents can steal you blind from preventing you from finding a reasonable part score when the remainder of the values are split evenly.

After the double, I'd just bid 4 and hope it was right.
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#11 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2019-April-29, 13:45

4c asks p to bid 4cards up the line. So i correct 4h to 4s
... most of the new ideas I get are pretty "boring", mostly focusing on constructive methods rather than destructive ones --- Kungsgeten
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#12 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2019-April-29, 13:58

I'm not sure why anyone bothers posting these sorts of hands. Partner made a stupid bid. He had a clear pass of 3C, except that he is the sort of player who thinks that he has to make every decision for the partnership.

Learning how best to cater to such bidding is a waste of time: one is far better served by either persuading partner that bridge is a game that is played by a partnership (which requires learning how to pass when one lacks the values for a bid) or by finding another partner.

As for the 'correct' call, assuming that partner has a double of 3C, the answer is trivial. 4S.

The fact that partner might hold some 3=4=4=2 (or other hand with only 3 spades) is an irrelevancy. Besides which, 4S may have play anyway.

One should generally advance takeout doubles on the assumption that partner is 4=4=4=1 with a decent opening hand. Anything else is too convoluted, and one ends up taking weird action for no good reason.

As an example, say we bid 4C. Partner is supposed to bid suits up the line. So what if he bids 4D? Having found our fit, do we override to bid 4S anyway? If not, why not? And, if yes, why waste time with 4C? Indeed, logically if we bid 4C then 4S, denying interest in the red suits, we should have some mild slam interest, since we were planning on 4S from the outset but chose to cuebid first.

If partner bids 4H over 4C, why would our 4S call mean that we have longer diamonds? We didn't know he was bidding 4H rather than 4D, so our 4S call has the same meaning as if he had bid 4D....a hand too good for a direct 4S.

Now, if we had 4=4 majors, we'd not be conveying slam interest, since we'd bid 4H over 4D to keep looking for the fit, and we'd pass 4H.
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#13 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2019-April-29, 14:43

View Postmikeh, on 2019-April-29, 13:58, said:

As an example, say we bid 4C. Partner is supposed to bid suits up the line.

I think 4C merely says « pick your major » (or be prepared to go high cuz I have a monster hand). To cover the cases partner doesn’t have the 4441 textbook shape, but is (43)51 or sometimes even (53)41 with a very lousy 5-cd suit that wasn’t mentionable at the 3 level.
But I agree, 4C won’t help here so unless playing 4D as forcing (with doubt on a major game), you close your eyes and bid 4S, yes. The lack of 5th card is compensated by the strength of the hand.
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#14 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2019-May-01, 20:51

View Posthelene_t, on 2019-April-29, 13:45, said:

4c asks p to bid 4cards up the line. So i correct 4h to 4s

And partner is supposed to pass 4s? You have no slam aspirations at all? If partner is supposed to pass, what do you do with a slam hand?
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#15 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2019-May-01, 21:50

ahydra writes 'IMPs, none vul. Is there a textbook bid for this kind of moderate-strength, no clear direction hand after a pre-empt?'
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

IMO our main aim should be to reach a playable game, rather than find a slam, so I rank
1. 4 ART 2 places to play or slam-try.
2. 4 NAT Hoping that partner has 4+ or that the Moysian is playable, in spite of the pre-empt.
3. 5 NAT Also unilateral
4, 3 NAT Pusillanimous..
5. 4 NAT Ditto.

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#16 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2019-May-01, 22:04

View Postmikeh, on 2019-April-29, 13:58, said:

I'm not sure why anyone bothers posting these sorts of hands. Partner made a stupid bid. He had a clear pass of 3C, except that he is the sort of player who thinks that he has to make every decision for the partnership.

Even if partner's call is ridiculous, there's still value in discussing what the right call is in the cases where partner's call wasn't ridiculous. Now maybe one shouldn't bother posting partner's ridiculous hand, that's another story.

Quote

As an example, say we bid 4C. Partner is supposed to bid suits up the line. So what if he bids 4D? Having found our fit, do we override to bid 4S anyway? If not, why not? And, if yes, why waste time with 4C? Indeed, logically if we bid 4C then 4S, denying interest in the red suits, we should have some mild slam interest, since we were planning on 4S from the outset but chose to cuebid first.

If partner bids 4H over 4C, why would our 4S call mean that we have longer diamonds? We didn't know he was bidding 4H rather than 4D, so our 4S call has the same meaning as if he had bid 4D....a hand too good for a direct 4S.

Now, if we had 4=4 majors, we'd not be conveying slam interest, since we'd bid 4H over 4D to keep looking for the fit, and we'd pass 4H.


I think it's really weird and suboptimal to bid diamonds up the line in response to cue bid. I mean how often does partner care if you have diamonds? The most common hand for the cue bid must be equal length majors, so surely you should bid your lowest 4 cd major if you have one. That makes life easier IMO. With the most common hand partner can just pass. If your 4d denies 4 cd major, then partner can bid *either* major as the slam try too strong for just 4M. Or raise D, etc. Or maybe 3c-x-p-4c-p-4d-p-4H is supposed to be 5-5 majors to cater to some cases where doubler is 3352? I don't know, I haven't really ever discussed this and it doesn't show up in books.


Correcting hearts to spades can show 4 cd spades and diamonds, can correct 4s over the cue to 5d with hearts and diamonds. The only thing you give up is the 4 level slam try in spades if partner has hearts. The question is whether making lower level slam try is more or less important than getting to best game. The adage is game before slam, so ... You are giving up the slam try in hearts, so is it that bad to give up the slam try in spades?
If it goes 1c - x - p - 2c, don't you bid a major in preference to diamonds? Why should this be different?
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#17 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2019-May-02, 04:20

View Postnige1, on 2019-May-01, 21:50, said:

IMO our main aim should be to reach a playable game, rather than find a slam, so I rank
1. 4 ART 2 places to play or slam-try.
2. 4 NAT Hoping that partner has 4+ or that the Moysian is playable, in spite of the pre-empt.
3. 5 NAT Also unilateral
4, 3 NAT Pusillanimous..
5. 4 NAT Ditto. [/hv]


I agree with your top choice 1) 4. I would interpret converting to 4 if doubler responds 4 to strongly imply 4 spades only since you would just bid 4 holding 5+ spades.
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#18 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2019-May-02, 04:24

View PostHardVector, on 2019-May-01, 20:51, said:

And partner is supposed to pass 4s?

Depends on what partner has B-)

View PostHardVector, on 2019-May-01, 20:51, said:

You have no slam aspirations at all?

Partner knows you had enough to bid a game instead of making a minimum 3 level response to the double. If partner can't make a slam try, neither can I.


View PostHardVector, on 2019-May-01, 20:51, said:

If partner is supposed to pass, what do you do with a slam hand?

If partner is interested in slam, I would assume they would make a slam try.
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#19 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2019-May-02, 16:16

View PostHardVector, on 2019-May-01, 20:51, said:

And partner is supposed to pass 4s? You have no slam aspirations at all? If partner is supposed to pass, what do you do with a slam hand?

Good question. I generally honour the principle that finding the right strain goes before making slam tries. In this particular situation, I think it is clear that we do need to have a way to find the 4-4 spades fit while at the same time keeping the door open for a 5-4 diamonds fit (which may be a 5-5 fit on a good day). This is because:
- we don't want to play a 4-3 fit when opps preempt so that trumps could easily be 5-1, with LHO having captainship so he can double for penalties
- we want to play the same system when I respond to a balancing double and hence can't have a slam try.

But I didn't answer your question. To be honest, I don't know. But maybe we can use the 4 bid by either partner for something creative?
... most of the new ideas I get are pretty "boring", mostly focusing on constructive methods rather than destructive ones --- Kungsgeten
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