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UI from another table again

#61 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2019-June-26, 12:45

View Postpran, on 2019-June-25, 10:40, said:

You are quite correct in your assumption on how little a revoke often affects the table result, but not in your understanding of the reasons for the current law 64.

Where did I say anything about the reason for the current law 64? Did you interpret my use of the word "penalty" to mean that the reason for the current rectification is to punish revokers?

That's not what I intended. Even though it's not the reason, it's still the effect: the rectification for a revoke often results in the revoking side getting a worse result than they would have otherwise. So you're effectively penalized, even if that's not the intent (like saying that the penalty for having children is losing sleep).

#62 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2019-June-26, 13:49

View Postbarmar, on 2019-June-26, 12:45, said:

Where did I say anything about the reason for the current law 64? Did you interpret my use of the word "penalty" to mean that the reason for the current rectification is to punish revokers?

That's not what I intended.

Glad to hear that.

View Postbarmar, on 2019-June-26, 12:45, said:

Even though it's not the reason, it's still the effect: the rectification for a revoke often results in the revoking side getting a worse result than they would have otherwise. So you're effectively penalized, even if that's not the intent (like saying that the penalty for having children is losing sleep).

They might feel penalized, but why not instead accept as a fact that absolute justice is a myth and that we live in a simple world where the effects of irregularities are accepted as fair more often than not.
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#63 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-June-26, 14:47

View Postpran, on 2019-June-25, 10:40, said:

The main purpose of Law 64 is to simplify the process of rectification after an established revoke reasonably to both sides without the need for lengthy postmortem investigations.

The main alternatives for a law 64 could be:
1: The Director must examine each and every board where a revoke has been established and decide the number of tricks that shall be transferred.
2: The present rules
3: Older rules where the penalty for a revoke was the transfer of two or even three tricks.


Hey guys, don't screw with this - it's one of the few rules that can be easily understood and applied B-)
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#64 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2019-June-28, 08:20

View Postpran, on 2019-June-26, 13:49, said:

They might feel penalized, but why not instead accept as a fact that absolute justice is a myth and that we live in a simple world where the effects of irregularities are accepted as fair more often than not.

How they feel is not really relevant, the simple fact is that the rectification frequently causes them damage. While the reason for this may be primarily to simplify the TD's job, it still happens.

We're debating the word we choose to call it: adjustment vs. penalty. While sometimes words matter (by calling the Obamacare fine for not getting health insurance a "tax", SCOTUS was able to declare it constitutional), in most cases it's the effect that's most important.

#65 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2019-June-28, 08:33

View Postbarmar, on 2019-June-28, 08:20, said:

How they feel is not really relevant, the simple fact is that the rectification frequently causes them damage. While the reason for this may be primarily to simplify the TD's job, it still happens.

We're debating the word we choose to call it: adjustment vs. penalty. While sometimes words matter (by calling the Obamacare fine for not getting health insurance a "tax", SCOTUS was able to declare it constitutional), in most cases it's the effect that's most important.

Well,
my experience is that more often than causing "damage" to the offending side the revoke laws just restore equity on the board.
And a common question from the non-offending side is then: "Do we not get anything extra for the revoke?"
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#66 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2019-June-28, 09:21

View Postpran, on 2019-June-28, 08:33, said:

Well,
my experience is that more often than causing "damage" to the offending side the revoke laws just restore equity on the board.
And a common question from the non-offending side is then: "Do we not get anything extra for the revoke?"

Possibly because many of them remember the old laws, which transferred a second trick in more cases. So the current revoke law is less penalty-like than it used to be.

#67 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2019-June-28, 10:02

View Postbarmar, on 2019-June-28, 09:21, said:

Possibly because many of them remember the old laws, which transferred a second trick in more cases. So the current revoke law is less penalty-like than it used to be.

No, they simply ask if the offender really can get away with no consequence.
And this is where I tell them that the purpose of the laws is not penalties but restoration of normal results as much as possible.
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#68 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-June-28, 13:09

View Postpran, on 2019-June-28, 10:02, said:

No, they simply ask if the offender really can get away with no consequence.
And this is where I tell them that the purpose of the laws is not penalties but restoration of normal results as much as possible.


Sadly, this is true, even when the auction, in particular, can no longer be anything resembling “normal”. The next version of the laws will probably reward offfenders.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#69 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2019-June-28, 14:52

Vampyr is such an optimist. B-)
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#70 User is offline   pran 

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Posted 2019-June-28, 15:10

View Postbarmar, on 2019-June-28, 09:21, said:

Possibly because many of them remember the old laws, which transferred a second trick in more cases. So the current revoke law is less penalty-like than it used to be.

View Postpran, on 2019-June-28, 10:02, said:

No, they simply ask if the offender really can get away with no consequence.
And this is where I tell them that the purpose of the laws is not penalties but restoration of normal results as much as possible.

View PostVampyr, on 2019-June-28, 13:09, said:

Sadly, this is true, even when the auction, in particular, can no longer be anything resembling “normal”. The next version of the laws will probably reward offfenders.

1: How on earth can the auction in any way be affected by the laws relevant to revoke situations?

2: A major reason why we do not penalize but try to restore normal results is that we assume irregularities are accidental, not deliberate.

If a director has reason to believe that an irregularity was deliberate he shall apply laws 90 and 91.
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#71 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2019-June-29, 08:16

View Postpran, on 2019-June-28, 15:10, said:

1: How on earth can the auction in any way be affected by the laws relevant to revoke situations?

I think she was generalizing, not just talking about revokes.

Quote

2: A major reason why we do not penalize but try to restore normal results is that we assume irregularities are accidental, not deliberate.

Indeed. The laws are designed around the philosophy that bridge is played by honest people.

Quote

If a director has reason to believe that an irregularity was deliberate he shall apply laws 90 and 91.

And more eggregious activity like collusive cheating isn't addressed at all, it's left for bridge authorities to deal with.

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