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I know 0 is mathematically even but

#1 User is offline   thepossum 

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Posted 2019-June-20, 01:12

I know I was shouted down and attacked last time I mentioned an issue like this so I refer the readers to other threads for the unfounded abuse I am likely to get here

However it is ridiculous for anyone (including GiB) to bid 5NT (even number of keycards and void) when you (or GiB) have zero keycards.

The whole point of Blackwood is to avoid unmakeable slams

Excuse me for expecting the occasional bit of common sense bidding

Fortunately this time it occurred on Hand 1 of a Free MP tournament so it didnt waste my precious time and dollars, unlike other occasions

PS the modification to the code would be quite easy

In psuedo code its something like

If (currentbidder=ME) then
If ( partner.previousbid()=="4NT" and
Not(isQuantitative(partner.previousbid())) and
me.myhand.numberofkeycards()==0)
then

case (ME.biddingsystem().blackwoodtype)
1430: ME.mycandidatebids={"5D"}
else: ME.mycandidatebids={"5C"}
end case

ME.bypass_simulation_algorithm/thinking_to_save_processor_time/brain_and_partners_good_mood_time_and_money()
ME.bid(select best candidate bid from(ME.mycandidatebids))
return

else
ME.run_all_the_rest_of_your_code_or_bidding_system()
return

end if

else
ME.waitformyturntobid()
end if
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#2 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2019-June-20, 04:20

I suspect that

1. ME.bid(select best candidate bid from(ME.mycandidatebids)) is significantly more difficult than you might think
2. There will be some significant losses when that 5 response that you think promises an Ace actually has a void

Please note: I think that having GIB always bid 5!D with zero keycards and a void is a much more reasonable ask

Also, I can't help but note your repeated complaints when GIB shows the Queen of trump in keycard sequences when, in fact, it actually holds extra trump length. (The standard definition)

What you asking for here is for BBO to change the meaning of keycard away from standard and towards and idiosyncratic implementation that you prefer.

this feels inconsistent
Alderaan delenda est
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#3 User is offline   etha 

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Posted 2019-June-20, 05:57

use jack you can switch off extra length= q trumps.
0

#4 User is online   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-June-20, 08:45

There's quite a bit of of detail to void showing replies that is not fully standard and should be agreed between partners.
Some do not show with zero keycards, some change the responses when there is a known void (5NT = 1 keycard, etc.), some use 6 trumps to show a void in a higher suit, and so on.
The important thing as always is that both partners are singing off the same sheet, which in the case of GIB simply means knowing what it will do (in this case, show an undisclosed void with any even number of keycards).
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#5 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2019-June-20, 08:46

It's a nice try to improve the bots, but there is one important aspect to showing voids in a Blackwood situation...judgement. You show the void if you feel that it is a USEFUL void. If you don't feel it is useful, you don't show it and just respond keycards. Having 0 keycards, unless you have been able to show a bust hand already, you may deem the negative bid to be more informative than the void. I'm not sure this is something you can teach the bot.
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#6 User is online   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-June-20, 09:07

View PostHardVector, on 2019-June-20, 08:46, said:

It's a nice try to improve the bots, but there is one important aspect to showing voids in a Blackwood situation...judgement. You show the void if you feel that it is a USEFUL void. If you don't feel it is useful, you don't show it and just respond keycards. Having 0 keycards, unless you have been able to show a bust hand already, you may deem the negative bid to be more informative than the void. I'm not sure this is something you can teach the bot.


Judgement but also meta-rules, which are effectively agreements about judgement - for instance, if I already showed my void as an ambiguous singleton/void splinter, do I still show it as a void, and if so is it considered a known void?
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#7 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2019-June-20, 10:54

View PostHardVector, on 2019-June-20, 08:46, said:

It's a nice try to improve the bots, but there is one important aspect to showing voids in a Blackwood situation...judgement. You show the void if you feel that it is a USEFUL void. If you don't feel it is useful, you don't show it and just respond keycards. Having 0 keycards, unless you have been able to show a bust hand already, you may deem the negative bid to be more informative than the void. I'm not sure this is something you can teach the bot.

The robot could just sim whether the void is useful before answering.
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#8 User is offline   DozyDom 

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Posted 2019-June-20, 11:29

I agree in general, yeah. Forcing to slam when you have no keycards, not really a great shout as a rule. Opposite a particularly strog hand, or where you've already limited your hand extensively, sure, but it's often enough a sad mistake that I feel like GIB should avoid it more - I can't comment on the code necessary though.

Note though that you haven't received any abuse about this problem, even if some people disagree as to the solution.
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#9 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2019-June-20, 14:47

There may be times when it is correct to show a void with no keycards.
However, Gib is not programmed such that it can make such a decision correctly (even with sims)
Better for Gib to never to show a void with 0 KC.
Sarcasm is a state of mind
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