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55 majors after p opens 15-17 1nt what are you going to do?

#1 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2019-June-25, 04:35



no choices what do you intend to do and why? IMPS
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#2 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-June-25, 04:42

On balance I'm not going to bid game on a 5-3 fit, so I start with 2, invite if partner bids a major, bid 2 over 2.

The agreements we have are that partner will pull to 2 with 3-2 in the majors.
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#3 User is online   thepossum 

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Posted 2019-June-25, 04:45

Depending on context, tournament, vulnerability and mood I would consider Stayman 2C etc

There is possible game

But I'm no expert :)
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#4 User is online   sfi 

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Posted 2019-June-25, 05:41

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-June-25, 04:42, said:

On balance I'm not going to bid game on a 5-3 fit, so I start with 2, invite if partner bids a major, bid 2 over 2.


This looks about right. The agreement that 1NT - 2C; 2D - 2H shows a weak hand with both majors is a good one to have.
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#5 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-June-25, 05:46

View Postsfi, on 2019-June-25, 05:41, said:

This looks about right. The agreement that 1NT - 2C; 2D - 2H shows a weak hand with both majors is a good one to have.


100% standard in weak no trump land, not sure about strong
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#6 User is online   sfi 

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Posted 2019-June-25, 05:51

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-June-25, 05:46, said:

100% standard in weak no trump land, not sure about strong


Maybe 70% standard in strong NT land - more common among stronger pairs in my experience. It can vary by location as well as by experience level.
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#7 User is offline   spotlight7 

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Posted 2019-June-25, 06:26

View Postgszes, on 2019-June-25, 04:35, said:



no choices what do you intend to do and why? IMPS


1N-3C* 5-5 Ms invites game. Partner is

best placed with deciding on game or not.
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#8 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2019-June-25, 09:18

It depends on your agreements.

It isn't uncommon for strong NTer's to agree the 1 NT- 2 - 2 - 2 is "garbage" Stayman and not invitational. Then 1 NT bidder with 3+ passes 2 , but with 2 opener must bid 2 .

Also, if you view this hand as invitational, you can transfer to and bid 2 . With a GF 5-5 , you would transfer to and then bid .
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#9 User is offline   rmnka447 

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Posted 2019-June-25, 09:21

View PostCyberyeti, on 2019-June-25, 05:46, said:

100% standard in weak no trump land, not sure about strong


If you eschew transfers, then an alternative is to use 2 to ask opener to bid their longest major or with equal lengths.
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#10 User is offline   igt3 

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Posted 2019-June-26, 01:46

Playing IMPs I wouldn´t like to miss game with this. Then it is just a question how you invite with 5-5.
Playing MPs I think I would get to 2M if that is possible (1NT-2C-2D-2H is a good way)
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#11 User is offline   phoenixmj 

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Posted 2019-June-26, 08:23

We play a strong NT open and with 5-5 in the majors invitational, we bid 3H over 1N. If game force - then we bid 3S showing 5-5 game force.

I was under the impression that this was not uncommon treatment - but I notice that the prior responses do not mention this.

With the hand in question - it is stronger than it looks if partner has a fit in either major. I am calculating LTC as 7 - so if partner does have a fit it is quite possible you will make game. A huge difference to score the game.
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#12 User is offline   heart76 

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Posted 2019-June-26, 09:51

View Postphoenixmj, on 2019-June-26, 08:23, said:

We play a strong NT open and with 5-5 in the majors invitational, we bid 3H over 1N. If game force - then we bid 3S showing 5-5 game force.

I was under the impression that this was not uncommon treatment - but I notice that the prior responses do not mention this.

With the hand in question - it is stronger than it looks if partner has a fit in either major. I am calculating LTC as 7 - so if partner does have a fit it is quite possible you will make game. A huge difference to score the game.


I have been using the same for some time and have seen that the number of hands you want to use the invitational 3H is small since in many cases you want to invite only if partner has 4 card major. I think this might be one of those. Anyway, I think I will run a simulation on such hands.
So in practice one has to consider the trash stayman option strongly, intending to raise the major to 3 or to bid 2H.
Other than that, I am very happy with this use of 3 of a major over 1NT, even though it is less common.
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#13 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-June-26, 15:02

View Postrmnka447, on 2019-June-25, 09:18, said:

It isn't uncommon for strong NTer's to agree the 1 NT- 2 - 2 - 2 is "garbage" Stayman and not invitational. Then 1 NT bidder with 3+ passes 2 , but with 2 opener must bid 2 .

Also, if you view this hand as invitational, you can transfer to and bid 2 . With a GF 5-5 , you would transfer to and then bid .


I think all that is the normal advanced treatment over strong 1NT. If you transfer to and then bid , a minor is a control-bid that fixes as trumps.

Playing my "Stayman", after 1NT 2 2 which denies 5cM, 3 shows precisely 5-5 majors INV.
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#14 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2019-June-26, 15:51

Another way to deal with 55 (might not get well in all bidding systems):
- super weak (a K less than here): transfer to S to (i) introduce H maybe if opps compete, and (iI) avoid the 2D transfer being Xed
- weakish with « miracle » game if perfectly fitting hand opposite (a good fit, no wasted minor honors, etc), the hand we have here: transfer to H then 2S
- game and no more (a major Q or an A more than current hand): 4D pick your major
- slam invite with miracle hand opposite (12-14 HCP kind of): transfer to S then 4H
- strong slam desire: transfer to S then 3H

Here at IMPs it would be criminal not to invite. I’d even do it at MPs (do we really have 5432 in both majors?)
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#15 User is offline   dsLawsd 

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Posted 2019-June-26, 18:39

Playing an updated 2/1 card in the 1990's in a Western (Walsh) style 3 showed a weakish 5-5 major hand.
It has become more fashionable to use bids at the 3 level over
15-17 NTs to show shortness with no 5 card major because the frequency of use seems to favor this idea. They would transfer to spades and then
decide how to follow. I have many expert pairs convention cards so I am going to research their methods. At IMPs it seems worth an invite vul.
At matchpoints I would only go after a super-accept, but then I usually play only teams.
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#16 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2019-June-26, 18:53

This is more a matter of hand evaluation than a matter of system. This is a pretty good hand opposite a strong NT. It's a seven-loser hand with an almost-guaranteed 8-fit (partner could be 2254 or 2245, so it's not a guaranteed 8-fit) and a very possible 9-fit (maybe even a 10-fit). That will generally produce a game. The one big negative is your hideous lack of spot cards in your long suits. KT8xx would certainly be a lot better.

I would make whatever bid you use to invite game in a major. For me, that's 3H, but there are a wide variety of methods and treatments here.

I think forcing to game is a little ambitious, even in IMPs, but I don't think it's completely nuts. Failing to invite game, however, is way too cowardly here.

Cheers,
Mike
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#17 User is offline   shayde 

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Posted 2019-June-27, 18:33

View Postspotlight7, on 2019-June-25, 06:26, said:

1N-3C* 5-5 Ms invites game. Partner is

best placed with deciding on game or not.


What range of values for this response?
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#18 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2019-July-08, 21:05

If/when I can get my partners to agree, I would play 3 as 5-5 Majors, invitational or better. This hand is IMO a bit weak for that, so I would opt for the Garbage Stayman auction others have proposed.
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#19 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2019-July-08, 21:22

If you play Stayman followed by 2 as invitational, I would just transfer to spades on this one. If opps balance I might get the chance to show this hand with a 3 bid (for example if I pass the transfer accept and opps come to live then).

If you play Stayman followed by 2 as weak, then I would do that.
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#20 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-July-08, 21:26

View Postphoenixmj, on 2019-June-26, 08:23, said:

We play a strong NT open and with 5-5 in the majors invitational, we bid 3H over 1N. If game force - then we bid 3S showing 5-5 game force.

I was under the impression that this was not uncommon treatment - but I notice that the prior responses do not mention this.


This used to be very common, but nowadays most people play 1NT-3M as either a 3-card fragment or a singleton, with the other holding in the other major.
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