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5-5 minors in a short club context

Poll: 5-5 minors in a short club context (4 member(s) have cast votes)

Given the bidding structure, what's the best way to handle the 5-5 minor min hands?

  1. Open 1D, rebid 1NT (1 votes [25.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 25.00%

  2. Open 2D, replacing weak 2D (1 votes [25.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 25.00%

  3. Open 1D, jump rebid 3C (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  4. There's a better way (2 votes [50.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 50.00%

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#1 User is offline   perko90 

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Posted 2019-June-27, 00:16

Thanks to the rules change in ACBL, We're now able to play Transfer Walsh responses to 1 in a 2/1 system. It's been working quite well.
Naturally, it makes sense to move a bunch of the balanced hands into 1. So, we play short club.
We still feel that balanced hands with 5 s are best left in 1. As a result, our rebids after 1-1M are:
1NT = semi-balanced, 11-15 HCP w/ 1-2 cards in ptr's M. (rarely, 0454 possible after 1-1)
2 = Request to re-transfer to 2 (either to play or continue with various invite+ hands and 5+ s)
2 = 5 s and 3 pc min raise
2M = 4 pc min raise
I know there are alternative methods. But the above is working well and I'm happy with it. So, I'm not really requesting feedback on the structure. It's there for context.

The question is, given the above structure, what's the best way to handle 5-5 in the minors after 1-1M? Possibilities include:
1) Rebid 1NT with a min, jump to 3 with an invite and re-transfer to 2 and then bid 3 with a big hand
Remarks: No, you don't really want to play in 1NT on this shape. But in practice, it probably only comes up rarely because opponents will usually have and find their fit in the other M. And if they don't find it, then playing 1NT, even if sub-optimal, may not be too bad.
2) Same as #1 above but move the 5-5 minors min hand to an opening 2
Remarks: Cleanest solution with a nice preempt effect. But is it worth giving up the weak 2?
3) Use the jump to 3 for the min 5-5 hand, use the re-transfer to 2 and then bid 3 with an invite and move the strong hand to 1 with a planned 2 reverse
Remarks: The overload of the reverse may seem odd, but it's not too hard to unwind from a standard reverse shape
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#2 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2019-June-27, 16:54

The sensible way to show a minimum 55 minors is 1-2.
Surely 3 is needed for a good 5-5 hand.
Your system precludes 2 so I would suggest a 2NT opening for such a hand which has more preemptive value than your suggestion of 2 for both minors
Sarcasm is a state of mind
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#3 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2019-June-27, 21:20

Well, if you don't want to change the structure, if 2c is a transfer showing 5+ diamonds with invite+ hands, you are stuck with bidding 3c as a distributional minimum...which is completely contrary to commonsense bidding. Good luck with that.
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#4 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2019-June-28, 03:23

The answer to this seems obvious - make 1NT the weak or INV+ hand type and then farm the most awkward hand type into 2. The 3 most obvious approaches along the lines of your existing structure would be for 1NT to be either "weak with 4+ or any INV+ without support" with 2 covering weak hands without 4 clubs (presumably 6+ diamonds over 1 and 6+ diamonds or 54 over 1) or to have 1NT = "weak with 4+ or weak with 5+ or any INV without support" together with 2 = GF relay or 1NT = "weak with 4+ or weak with 5+ or any GF without support" with 2 = "any INV hand without support".

Other approaches are also possible of course (ask Adam (awm) for something absolutely optimal) but fundamentally my opinion is that using 1NT as semi-balanced in an unbalanced diamond system like this is at best poor and possibly even turns a good idea into a net minus given the disadvantages inherent in the 1 opening. It is this that causes the basic issue in your methods and any reasonable structure that addresses this should represent a significant improvement.
(-: Zel :-)
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#5 User is offline   perko90 

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Posted 2019-June-28, 11:14

View PostHardVector, on 2019-June-27, 21:20, said:

Well, if you don't want to change the structure, if 2c is a transfer showing 5+ diamonds with invite+ hands, you are stuck with bidding 3c as a distributional minimum...which is completely contrary to commonsense bidding. Good luck with that.

Seriously?! That's a cheap shot from the person who opens 1 promising 0 diamonds. I'm pretty sure we have very different views on what constitutes common sense bidding. And I'm OK with that.
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#6 User is offline   perko90 

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Posted 2019-June-28, 11:25

View PostZelandakh, on 2019-June-28, 03:23, said:

... but fundamentally my opinion is that using 1NT as semi-balanced in an unbalanced diamond system like this is at best poor and possibly even turns a good idea into a net minus given the disadvantages inherent in the 1 opening. It is this that causes the basic issue in your methods and any reasonable structure that addresses this should represent a significant improvement.

Wow! That's a strong statement from someone who's no stranger to creative bidding. I very much like that the 1NT rebid offers a chance to get out cheap in misfit hands. And still hints at diamond length (only 1=4=4=4 hand opposite a 1 reply doesn't have 5). I'm also fond of differentiating a 3-card raise from a 4-card one (with the 2 rebid). And the 2 re-transfer is much better and flexible than a standard 2 rebid. I recognize the weakness of not having a good, cheap way to rebid clubs, but it seemed worth the trade-off. I'll contemplate your feedback some more.
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#7 User is offline   straube 

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Posted 2019-June-29, 05:51

After 1D-1S

1N-min, bal or 3-suited short S
2C-transfer (includes inv+ hands)
2D-5D/5C, min
2H-3-cd raise with 5D, includes non-minimums
2S-4-cd raise
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#8 User is offline   perko90 

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Posted 2019-June-29, 17:40

View Poststraube, on 2019-June-29, 05:51, said:

After 1D-1S

1N-min, bal or 3-suited short S
2C-transfer (includes inv+ hands)
2D-5D/5C, min
2H-3-cd raise with 5D, includes non-minimums
2S-4-cd raise


I like it. Thanks!
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#9 User is offline   BRBanger 

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Posted 2019-July-28, 10:06

In a short club (with transfer responses), 15-17 NT, and unbalanced 1D opener, I like to open 2NT with 5-5 m's and 10-14 points. And a 2D Multi opener to cover 20-22 bal. Hence my vote.
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#10 User is online   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-July-28, 10:48

View PostBRBanger, on 2019-July-28, 10:06, said:

In a short club (with transfer responses), 15-17 NT, and unbalanced 1D opener, I like to open 2NT with 5-5 m's and 10-14 points. And a 2D Multi opener to cover 20-22 bal. Hence my vote.


I was thinking of doing the same (2NT = 5-5 minors) at some point. When you say 10 points minimum do you mean revalued for distribution, something like 43 2 KJ987 KT765? That looks a bit thin even with the right vulnerability, but 10 HCP looks a bit much and reduces the frequency even further.
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#11 User is offline   BRBanger 

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Posted 2019-July-29, 09:34

I like the 10-14 HCP approx. range, because it has more power than the more traditional (old-fashioned?) 5-9 which often helps oppo's and wins the contract much less frequently. Oppo's will find it harder to come in over 10-14. Using 10-14 gets this tricky hand off your chest (e.g. do you bid clubs twice...or not), takes it out of the 1D opening, and makes it a little harder for oppo's with its pre-emptive value, albeit that it offers oppo's a "values double". I guess 8-12 is the most frequent range of HCP, but I agree that the lower end of this is a bit "thin", especially vul. By all means, reduce the requirements a little, especially non-vul in 3rd, but my standard expectation (as partner) would be KQxxx in both minors.
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#12 User is offline   neilkaz 

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Posted 2019-July-29, 18:45

What is the minimum card level that one can now play T-Walsh in the ACBL in a 2/1 context? I'd like to try it with a couple of partners and think it is somewhat superior to standard vanilla 2/1.
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#13 User is online   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-July-30, 01:47

View PostBRBanger, on 2019-July-29, 09:34, said:

I like the 10-14 HCP approx. range, because it has more power than the more traditional (old-fashioned?) 5-9 which often helps oppo's and wins the contract much less frequently. Oppo's will find it harder to come in over 10-14. Using 10-14 gets this tricky hand off your chest (e.g. do you bid clubs twice...or not), takes it out of the 1D opening, and makes it a little harder for oppo's with its pre-emptive value, albeit that it offers oppo's a "values double". I guess 8-12 is the most frequent range of HCP, but I agree that the lower end of this is a bit "thin", especially vul. By all means, reduce the requirements a little, especially non-vul in 3rd, but my standard expectation (as partner) would be KQxxx in both minors.

Thanks, makes sense. We'll start with a zone/position flexible 10-14 hcp and see what happens.
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#14 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2019-August-13, 00:25

SIR,With the structure given by you I ,personally ,feel that you give up on the weak 2D opening .It is also my personal opinion that a weak 2d opening is a wasted bid as 1)it occurs rarely .2)Against good opponents it hardly makes any difference to them. Hence one either plays it as multi.or a strong (17/24) any 4441 hand as per the Italian Blue Team Club system or for a 5/5 in minors (with strict rules about the essential requirement of honors in each suit.) The rest of the structure suggested by you seems alright and practical except where opener has a genuine reversing hand with hearts and diamonds but lackin)g a 3 card support for responders major.With such a hand one transfers to 2D and then bid 2H,is'nt it.I would like to know as to how to bid such a reversing hand WITH 3 card xxx support for partners spade suit.
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#15 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2019-August-13, 06:37

View Postmsjennifer, on 2019-August-13, 00:25, said:

Hence one either plays it as multi.or a strong (17/24) any 4441 hand as per the Italian Blue Team Club system or for a 5/5 in minors (with strict rules about the essential requirement of honors in each suit.)

SIR, BB Systems 2009.
(-: Zel :-)
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