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BARE FLAT 13

Poll: BARE FLAT 13 (8 member(s) have cast votes)

What do you bid now?

  1. PASS (1 votes [12.50%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.50%

  2. DOUBLE (1 votes [12.50%])

    Percentage of vote: 12.50%

  3. 2 SPADE (6 votes [75.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 75.00%

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#1 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2019-July-19, 02:06

Sirs, my partner held .S-A953,H-A97,D-754,C-AJ3. He dealt and opened (vulnerable against Non.IMP. Pairs) ONE CLUB. The bidding went 1C-(1D)-DBL-(2D)-?.What should be his bid?.The specifics of his hand are 6 Controls, 13HCP and 9 losers.THANKS in anticipation.Partner is a non passed hand. His Double is 8 PLUS HCP and at least one four card major.
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#2 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2019-July-19, 02:33

View Postmsjennifer, on 2019-July-19, 02:06, said:

His Double is 8 PLUS HCP and at least one four card major.


I think that this is agreement is the problem. You would like to bid 2, but you don't know whether partner has a four-card spade suit. I think that after the specific 1-1 sequence, responder should bid a four-card suit and only make a negative double with both majors.
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#3 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2019-July-19, 03:52

View PostTramticket, on 2019-July-19, 02:33, said:

I think that this is agreement is the problem. You would like to bid 2, but you don't know whether partner has a four-card spade suit. I think that after the specific 1-1 sequence, responder should bid a four-card suit and only make a negative double with both majors.

Sir,whether right or wrong that is what the profile read.A bid of 1H/S over his RHO 's 1D shows A 5 card suit and a four card one is indicated by a negative dbl.Makes easier for partner to compete with 3 card support for the 5 card bid major.Hence the question" WHAT DO YOU BID".
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#4 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2019-July-19, 04:03

Urgh. Seems were harvesting the evil we planted with such an imprecise agreement.

Better play that X has to be either both, or no M. Or maybe just one M, but in that case either a tolerance for the other M (i.e. 4-3 at least), or a C fit in order to be able to land in a playable spot whatever partner bids.

Some play X is H (4 exactly, or 4+, depending on conventions).

A better precision to avoid guessing at the 2 or 3-level.

The 1D-(2C) sequence is already hard to bid against, but here we are almost as badly prepared.

Id try a kind of support X because 2M with M chosen by partner should have some play (while if I bid 2S to find xx KJxx Ax Qxxx...). Not a great shape but no wasted D honors and Aces.

But there could be a case for passing, partner with 8+ would not sell out at 2D against non-vul opps. Hoping his call would further describe his hand.
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#5 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2019-July-19, 04:03

Urgh. Seems were harvesting the evil we planted with such an imprecise agreement.

Better play that X has to be either both, or no M. Or maybe just one M, but in that case either a tolerance for the other M (i.e. 4-3 at least), or a C fit in order to be able to land in a playable spot whatever partner bids.

Some play X is H (4 exactly, or 4+, depending on conventions).

A better precision to avoid guessing at the 2 or 3-level.

The 1D-(2C) sequence is already hard to bid against, but here we are almost as badly prepared.

Id try a kind of support X because 2M with M chosen by partner should have some play (while if I bid 2S to find xx KJxx Ax Qxxx...). Not a great shape but no wasted D honors and Aces.

But there could be a case for passing, partner with 8+ would not sell out at 2D against non-vul opps. Hoping his call would further describe his hand.
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#6 User is offline   Tramticket 

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Posted 2019-July-19, 04:44

View Postmsjennifer, on 2019-July-19, 03:52, said:

Sir,whether right or wrong that is what the profile read.A bid of 1H/S over his RHO 's 1D shows A 5 card suit and a four card one is indicated by a negative dbl.Makes easier for partner to compete with 3 card support for the 5 card bid major.Hence the question" WHAT DO YOU BID".


Given these methods, I pass (red vulnerability at IMPs).
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#7 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2019-July-19, 05:48

I bid 2!S

If partner does not have spade tolerance than he either has

Enough Clubs to bid 3!C
A hand suitable for a 2NT rebid
Alderaan delenda est
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#8 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2019-July-19, 22:05

Given these agreements, you must pass. Keep in mind, however, that every book I've read that had negative doubles in it, specified that the auction 1c-(1d)-X guarantees BOTH majors. With just one, you are supposed to bid it as if the opponents hadn't bid. These books are written by bridge experts who make their living playing and teaching bridge. If you feel, however, that your methods are superior, then good luck.
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#9 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-July-20, 01:51

View PostHardVector, on 2019-July-19, 22:05, said:

Given these agreements, you must pass. Keep in mind, however, that every book I've read that had negative doubles in it, specified that the auction 1c-(1d)-X guarantees BOTH majors. With just one, you are supposed to bid it as if the opponents hadn't bid.

I think that's the modern standard and it certainly is logical. Around here however many people still play that double shows 8 (or 9) plus HCP and says nothing about majors, a major denies strength to double and is 5+card non forcing. A more defensive scheme that probably had some sense when playing Rubber and low level penalty doubles
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#10 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2019-July-20, 04:43

msjennifer 'Sirs, my partner held .S-A953,H-A97,D-754,C-AJ3. He dealt and opened (vulnerable against Non.IMP. Pairs) ONE CLUB. The bidding went 1C-(1D)-DBL-(2D)-?.What should be his bid?.The specifics of his hand are 6 Controls, 13HCP and 9 losers.THANKS in anticipation.Partner is a non passed hand. His Double is 8 PLUS HCP and at least one four card major.'
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

IMO you should always open the South hand. Now, over East's 2, I rank
1. 2 = NAT. Bite the bullet, hoping that North has s or sufficient values to handle this rebid.
2. Double = T/O. Perhaps this should show 3325 or similar, so is not much of a distortion.
3. Pass = NAT. But your opening is sound and improved by opponents' bids, so you might miss a contract
e.g. K x x x K x x x - K x x x x

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#11 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2019-July-20, 09:05

View Postpescetom, on 2019-July-20, 01:51, said:

I think that's the modern standard and it certainly is logical. Around here however many people still play that double shows 8 (or 9) plus HCP and says nothing about majors, a major denies strength to double and is 5+card non forcing. A more defensive scheme that probably had some sense when playing Rubber and low level penalty doubles

As I said, if you feel you know how to bid better than professional bridge players, good luck. I look forward to seeing your name in the Bermuda Bowl.
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#12 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-July-20, 14:26

View PostHardVector, on 2019-July-20, 09:05, said:

As I said, if you feel you know how to bid better than professional bridge players, good luck. I look forward to seeing your name in the Bermuda Bowl.


I bid the same way as you do, but I thought it was worthy of note that a lot of older players better than me (and maybe you too) still bid differently.
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#13 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2019-July-21, 02:06

View PostHardVector, on 2019-July-19, 22:05, said:

Given these agreements, you must pass. Keep in mind, however, that every book I've read that had negative doubles in it, specified that the auction 1c-(1d)-X guarantees BOTH majors. With just one, you are supposed to bid it as if the opponents hadn't bid. These books are written by bridge experts who make their living playing and teaching bridge. If you feel, however, that your methods are superior, then good luck.

Sir,thanx.As a matter of fact I was sitting behind my partner and his partner was an old timer who used the rather unusual negative double.My partner did bid 2S and the old man JUMPED TO 4S. holding S- KQxx,H-XXXXX-D-X,C-Qxx which had no chance as trumps broke 4-1 .Th=e old man was furious and scolded my unfortunate partner that 2S showed less losers and a 4+ club suit.May be they played it that way then.However my impression was partner could have passed to be on safer side.We play the negative double after 1C-(1D) as promising both majors and bid the lone 4 carded major at 1 level as if it is a natural auction as we all know.
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