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Most Informative Bid

Poll: Most Informative Bid (19 member(s) have cast votes)

Best Bid at IMPs

  1. Three Diamonds (2 votes [10.53%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.53%

  2. Three Hearts (Unassuming Cue Bid) (1 votes [5.26%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.26%

  3. Three Hearts (Splinter) (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  4. Three Spades (3 votes [15.79%])

    Percentage of vote: 15.79%

  5. Four Spades (10 votes [52.63%])

    Percentage of vote: 52.63%

  6. Other (3 votes [15.79%])

    Percentage of vote: 15.79%

Best Bid at MPs

  1. Three Diamonds (1 votes [5.26%])

    Percentage of vote: 5.26%

  2. Three Hearts (Unassuming Cue Bid) (2 votes [10.53%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.53%

  3. Three Hearts (Splinter) (2 votes [10.53%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.53%

  4. Three Spades (3 votes [15.79%])

    Percentage of vote: 15.79%

  5. Four Spades (7 votes [36.84%])

    Percentage of vote: 36.84%

  6. Other (4 votes [21.05%])

    Percentage of vote: 21.05%

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#1 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2019-August-16, 05:40

This hand is from rubber bridge (game all) but let's put it as an IMP and MP context as this is more fitting. Playing with and against good solid players I held this in the following auction:-



My thinking went as follows:

1). The HCPs between the four hands are reasonably evenly spread. The opponents have opened and limit raised and my partner has overcalled. It could be that we have just 16 HCPs and the opponents 24 HCPs, but that it could be nearer to 19 to 21 without counting distributional points.

2). We have the top suit spades so we can outbid them at the same level, if required.

3). Partner has overcalled so he's less likely to have quick tricks to cash, and I only have one - the A. The last thing I want to do is push the opponents into game.

4). Both a 3 or a 4 bid is pre-emptive, but my hand is a bit better than that with the A, Q, Q and singleton .

5). I'd rather make a constructive bid of 3 having already passed, or 3 here, but I was unsure whether 3 after the 2 bid would be taken as an Unassuming Cue Bid or shortness (a splinter).

Etc, etc.

In the end I thought 3 was maybe best, showing what I assumed was 4 card support and an outside suit. (Partner thankfully understood that bid!) But what do you think is best here, and as always thank you for your replies.
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#2 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-August-16, 06:23

View PostFelicityR, on 2019-August-16, 05:40, said:

In the end I thought 3 was maybe best, showing what I assumed was 4 card support and an outside suit. (Partner thankfully understood that bid!) But what do you think is best here, and as always thank you for your replies.


Yes, this is called a fit non-jump and is a very useful and descriptive bid.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#3 User is online   pescetom 

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Posted 2019-August-16, 07:40

View PostFelicityR, on 2019-August-16, 05:40, said:

3). Partner has overcalled so he's less likely to have quick tricks to cash, and I only have one - the A. The last thing I want to do is push the opponents into game.


Does the 2 limit raise show exactly 3-card support (as many play it)? If so I wouldn't be so worried about pushing opponents into game, given your singleton.
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#4 User is offline   steve2005 

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Posted 2019-August-16, 08:42

3 isn't a splinter.
Just a good passed hand raise.

but I dont think you have enough Q wasted
Sarcasm is a state of mind
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#5 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2019-August-16, 12:02

You can't make any determination on what to do unless you say what your partner is allowed to make a 1s vulnerable overcall. If you tend to be undisciplined and be able to overcall on any piece of 8 pt trash, you've got a nice guess about what to do here. I wish you luck. If, however, you have rules about what your overcalls are, then you should have a good idea about the range of your partner's hand and the possibility of making game.
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#6 User is offline   nekthen 

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Posted 2019-August-17, 03:37

At IMPS I punt 4 and leave them to guess. At pairs I am prepared to try a sneaky pass
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#7 User is offline   maartenxq 

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Posted 2019-August-17, 05:05

Nice problem. I prefer the rubber setting. I bid 4 in all kind of game, which may be utterly wrong especially against good and solid players who tend to double instead of bidding 5.

But as 4 spades may make or be a good sacrifice or gives opponents a nasty problem I prefer to get this hand of my chest as soon as possible.

Maarten Baltussen
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#8 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2019-August-17, 10:07

Sir and Madam.Just saying that 2S a limit raise is not enough.I shall first ask the opener the detailed explanation of that bid.A limit raise can be made in different ways in this particular auction.I shall have then the bids of (1)Double.(2)3H (3)3S and(4)4S available too me .NO,I shall never bid 3D as if it goes 3D-4H-P-P-? I also do not want partner to lead a diamond a lead which may turn out to be disastrous in case opps play in a heart contract. We have the bid of Double to indicate a 7 losers hand with one sure defensive trick, shortness in heart suit, fairly decent spade support and requesting partner to chose a lead.3D also MAY be taken as a desire informing partner not to lead a club.Since I have only three cards in clubs opponents may have likely losers which may disappear on a diamond lead. Partner will never lead clubs from KJxx if I bid 3D just now.Yes .I know some will say "if he leads a club from AJxx then it will be a disaster if opener has the King but then there is no end to all that. My choice bid here is DOUBLE.. Yes,I know,this bid can have different partnership understandings and so not many will like it. However it all depends upon the answer given by the opener.At IMP scoring my bid is 4S.THANKS ALL.
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#9 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2019-August-17, 10:36

DELETED
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#10 User is offline   cleveritis 

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Posted 2019-August-17, 16:46

If I cant bid 4h - which shows a good raise to 4S then I bid 4s.... 3D is terrible - you don't "fit jump" on Axxxx suits and a diamond lead say Jx or Qx can hand them the contract... 4H is what you do with bits and pieces - AND partner can bid 5S if they have the hand.

4S with stiff heart is fine, they were about to bid 4H over 3S in all likely hood, let them guess at the five level... unlikely with my spade holding they can comfortably double profitably.
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#11 User is offline   gszes 

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Posted 2019-August-17, 17:58

with two aces (ie defensive values) vs 1 ace and 2 queens I might be tempted to try a slow approach. Our spade length tremendously deteriorates much of partners defense so it appears that our hand should be treated as a preempt. 4s should do well in both cases. With our short heart and spade Q making it tough to double. 4S
has a small chance of getting an opp (with xx spades) to think we have ten+ spades and wrongly play their partner for one. Slam (for us) would seem to be impossible given the bidding so we might as well make the opps guess about how to proceed with a 4s bid.
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#12 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2019-August-18, 02:51

There seems to be 18+ total tricks (I doubt partner has 4H) so at IMPs, 4S is clear enough as a cheap save, a not too expensive insurance premium, or a make. The fit jump is 4D, not 3D, but not with a blank A. Even with QC as QD, the hand would be minimum but that would be my choice. To let partner know what to do if they bid 5H, or what to do after he makes the 1st trick with the SA.

At MPs, there is the small risk that both 4S and 4H go -1. And that they X for the magic 200. But if I bid 3S and it goes 4H pass pass, I’ll look stupid and clueless. So let them be the clueless ones and bid 4S.
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#13 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2019-August-18, 03:03

View Postcleveritis, on 2019-August-17, 16:46, said:

If I cant bid 4h - which shows a good raise to 4S then I bid 4s.... 3D is terrible - you don't "fit jump" on Axxxx suits and a diamond lead say Jx or Qx can hand them the contract... 4H is what you do with bits and pieces - AND partner can bid 5S if they have the hand.

4S with stiff heart is fine, they were about to bid 4H over 3S in all likely hood, let them guess at the five level... unlikely with my spade holding they can comfortably double profitably.


Swings and roundabouts, the issue here is that KJxx is potentially a great holding for bidding on in either minor. The reason for making the fit bid is on a hand like Kxxx, xxx, A10xxx, x where partner needs to know that KQxx is a bid on trigger and KQxx is not.
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#14 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2019-August-18, 17:31

3H is a cue-bid showing 10+ in support of spades. That is exactly what you have, and so that is a perfectly good bid. BTW, this hand is not some 8 HCP hand on this bidding. It is monstrously good.

4S is also a good call, provided you think the opponents are going to bid 4H.

As to which to bid:

Advantages of 3H:
The opponents might let you have it for 3S (probably not, but you never know what partner holds)
Partner may have 4 good hearts and want to X 4H rather than bid 4S
Partner will be able to judge better what to do over 5H (he will play you for one defensive trick outside spades, which is what you have)

Advantages of 4S:
You make the opponents guess what to do immediately, rather than giving North or South the opportunity to bid 3S (North) or 4m (North or South) to help them figure out what to do over 4S.

I slightly prefer 3H here, because if the opponents bid 5H, I want my partner to be able to X with 2+ defensive tricks and/or bid 5S with a truly good hand. If I bid 4S immediately, he will play me for zero defense and weaker minor holdings.

Incidentally, 3D shows a diamond suit and denies spade support unless you have some special agreement otherwise.

Cheers,
Mike
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#15 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2019-August-18, 21:16

 Vampyr, on 2019-August-16, 06:23, said:

Yes, this is called a fit non-jump and is a very useful and descriptive bid.


If you play fit non jumps (and you should, probably), this seems like the obviously winning bid. Pard has everything he needs to know about whether to defend 3H, bid 3S or bid 4S at that point.
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#16 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

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Posted 2019-August-18, 23:30

 Cthulhu D, on 2019-August-18, 21:16, said:

If you play fit non jumps (and you should, probably), this seems like the obviously winning bid. Pard has everything he needs to know about whether to defend 3H, bid 3S or bid 4S at that point.

If 3D is a fit non jump, than 3H is a splinter, and since my values are distributed,
3H looks like a better description.
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
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#17 User is offline   Cthulhu D 

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Posted 2019-August-18, 23:58

 P_Marlowe, on 2019-August-18, 23:30, said:

If 3D is a fit non jump, than 3H is a splinter, and since my values are distributed,
3H looks like a better description.


Is it? Good Question I guess. Partnership bidding at bridge appears to define the cheapest cue as a raise, and the jump cue as the splinter. So I'm assuming something like:

3C/3D: Fit non jump
3H: Good raise
3S: Competitive
4H: Splinter
4S: Preemptive
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#18 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2019-August-19, 01:58

FelicityR 'This hand is from rubber bridge (game all) but let's put it as an IMP and MP context as this is more fitting. Playing with and against good solid players I held this in the following auction:- My thinking went as follows:
1). The HCPs between the four hands are reasonably evenly spread. The opponents have opened and limit raised and my partner has overcalled. It could be that we have just 16 HCPs and the opponents 24 HCPs, but that it could be nearer to 19 to 21 without counting distributional points.
2). We have the top suit spades so we can outbid them at the same level, if required.
3). Partner has overcalled so he's less likely to have quick tricks to cash, and I only have one - the A. The last thing I want to do is push the opponents into game.
4). Both a 3 or a 4 bid is pre-emptive, but my hand is a bit better than that with the A, Q, Q and singleton .
5). I'd rather make a constructive bid of 3 having already passed, or 3 here, but I was unsure whether 3 after the 2 bid would be taken as an Unassuming Cue Bid or shortness (a splinter).
In the end I thought 3 was maybe best, showing what I assumed was 4 card support and an outside suit. (Partner thankfully understood that bid!) But what do you think is best here, and as always thank you for your replies.'
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I rank
1. 4 = SPL. Short s. Sound 4 card raise.
2..2N = ART. Good 4+ raise.
3, 3 = UCB. Usually good 3 card raise.
4. 3 = FIT.
5. 4 = PRE.

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#19 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2019-August-19, 04:26

 Cthulhu D, on 2019-August-18, 23:58, said:

3C/3D: Fit non jump
3H: Good raise
3S: Competitive
4H: Splinter
4S: Preemptive

Add 2NT = "good low-ODR raise" and make 3 = "good high-ODR raise" for further reduction of granularity. Some, like Nigel, prefer to use the calls to differentiate between 3 and 4 card raises but PBaB generally prefers to divide hands based on ODR.
(-: Zel :-)
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#20 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2019-August-19, 12:21

 P_Marlowe, on 2019-August-18, 23:30, said:

If 3D is a fit non jump, than 3H is a splinter, and since my values are distributed,
3H looks like a better description.


Kind of a problem if you hold a hand suitable for neither a splinter nor a fit non-jump.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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